Some on the left have lately taken to hyperbole—comparing George W. Bush and his administration to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany. Bush is not a fascist who has institutionalized repression and executed the opposition, but several of his tactics nonetheless should send chills down our collective spine. The Bush administration demonstrably and repeatedly lied about why we went to war… return to article
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Reader Comments (52)Page 1 of 1 pagesWhen we think of Hitler we think of the Hitler of 1939, of the Hitler that started a world conflagration and committed arguably the most egregious crime against a single people in history.
It is clear that George Bush is not that person.
Look, however, at an earlier Hitler, the Hitler we saw as he began his climb to power. Look at the policies initiated and carried out, the propaganda machine built and operated and the attitude toward the rest of the world demonstrated as he and his party began to sieze and then wield power in their country.
It may be hyperbolic to speak of Bush and the Neocons as the final manifestation of Hitler, and, if you examine their attitudes and their stated aims for the United States and their actions in the world and lay that over the earlier manifestations of the Nazis I believe your bones will be deeply chilled, indeed.
John Gillmore
Posted by John Gillmore on Oct 31, 2004 at 9:00 AM I do not like to see this president compared to Hitler. It’s a sloppy comparison. However, anyone who reject such comparisons out of hand is also missing something important. I would recommend reading Martin A Lee’s book The Beast Reawakens to understand the survival and metastasis of fascist ideas after their defeat in World War 2. There are many connections between surviving fascist/Nazi elements and conservatism in this country and elsewhere. Fascism lives; it simply became “the political philosophy that dare not speak its name.”
Quickie history lesson: Benito Mussolini started out as a Marxist, but by 1918, when he coinded the word ‘fascism’, he had migrated to the far right. His Fascism was a coalition of the military, the church, and wealthy landowners in the Po Valley, and then wealthy corporate factory owners. He said fascism could better be called the corporate state. He beat down labor unions, the press, women, Ethiopians.
Bush’s policies match up with Mussolini’s on a point-by-point basis. I’ll let The Goddess tell it:
http://the-goddess.org/blog/2004/08/yes-it-canwhy-i-wont-apologize-for.htmlThe fascist template can be found in many nations during the last century, allowing for local flavor. For example, it doesn’t much matter if the dominant church is Christian, Islamic, or Shinto. How can someone go from far left to far right, as Mussolini did? Just ask Napoleon: “Paris is well worth a mass.” A great show of piety plays well with some of the public.
Let’s look at it another way: totalitarian communists and authoritarian fascists agree with each other more than they agree with liberal democrats. Instead of ‘left’ and ‘right’ we have the poles of ‘closed’ and ‘open’.
Closed governing philosophies may disagree on whether there is a God and on whether private corporations or the State should control the means of production. But they agree that:
- A single party will rule.
- The way to power is through the single party.
- Decision making tends to be centralized. If a closed state does not begin as a dictatorship, it will become one as ambitious sociopaths are magnetically drawn to the centers of power and the strongest competitors seize the helm.
- The use of force to maintain party rule is acceptable. Opposition will be crushed.
- Economic power is aligned with the Party, whether this means control over private corporations or over State industries.
- Even if there is a stated belief in economic equality, those at the top of the Party or friendly to it will live in luxury and the rest will toil and go without.
- The press is either controlled by the Party, or by corporations whose interest is inseparable from that of the Party. The press will say that invisible purple llamas are responsible for the failed corn crop, if that’s what the Party tells it to say.
- A strong military is desired and is used to further the Party. This will often include foreign wars which seize resources and distract the people from the Party’s bad domestic policies. Borders are tightly controlled and police and military are not clearly separated.
- Crime is whatever the Party says it is. Criticizing Stalin in a private letter got Solzhenitsyn sent to the gulag. In Cambodia in 1975, being a school teacher was enough to get you killed. Under Hitler, it became a crime for a Jew to have a telephone, so that many of those sent to death camps were, technically, ‘criminals.’
- The rights of the Party, the State, and whatever passes for a ruling class, will always eclipse the rights of any individual. Even the dictator may be ground up in this machinery if he is weak.Other than anarchistic ‘failed states’ where there is no government but that of firepower, the ‘closed state’ frame is roomy enough to cover just about every place a sane person would want to avoid.
The ‘open state’, on the other hand, can take many forms, but they too share certain defining characteristics.
- The individual enjoys a long list of rights which are considered sacred. “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” There are degrees of openness and many different views of what rights are more important, but in general, the individual in an open society is free to speak hir mind, travel without being monitored, associate and organize politically, and so on.
- The government is never the sole property of any party. If a party in power governs badly, it should be possible to remove it without bloodshed.
- Decision making is decentralized and local wherever practical. Even in the center of government, ‘checks and balances’ exist to prevent dangerous concentrations of power in one party or person.
- Economic power is comparatively decentralized. Neither state nor corporate monopolies will be allowed to crush the life out of ‘mom and pop’ stores. Extreme wealth concentrations are discouraged by tax policies. Extreme poverty is considered a human rights violation and combatted accordingly.
- A truly free press is protected from interference by government and private interests. It is understood that a thousand newsletters published from basements are better for the public good than one fat newspaper run by the State or a private monopoly. Opposing views always have access.
- The less wasted on military spending, the better. The only thing more wasteful than a bomb that rusts in a warehouse is one that is used. Like many other aspects of an ideal open state, a small military may appear to be a luxury no one can afford in the face of aggression, but it is always to be preferred when possible. And it is understood that military spending threatens neighbor states, causing them to arm themselves, so that arms races threaten the peace. It is understood that often it is cheaper to assist one’s neighbors peacefully, and in the end a better defense. It is worth noting that in the Iraq war, the United States has already spent about $5,000 for each Iraqi citizen, and has already cost each American citizen about $400.
- In an open society, crime refers to behaviors that harm people. Criticising the government is not criminal. Very little that passes between consenting adults is criminalized. Neither corporations nor churches are allowed to use the courts to impose their will upon the general public. Open societies tend to shun the death penalty, as there is no way to redress a wrongfully executed prisoner.
_When in doubt, the rights of the individual will always precede those of any artificial entity, whether state, corporation, or church.One can add other points, such as free inquiry, scientific openness, even freedom to alter one’s own consciousness with drugs (drug prohibition was an early front in the decay of the Bill of Rights).
It should be clear to anyone who closely follows the news that the Republican Party has pushed the United States firmly in the direction of a Closed State. Republicans have long accused Liberal Democrats of trying to lead the nation toward communism, but it can be seen that Soviet-era communism actually has less in common with the liberal ideal of openness than with the conservative Republican agenda of one-party closed government.
Posted by Tom Buckner on Oct 31, 2004 at 10:03 AM The Nazi comparisons, seven minutes reading to children, being a drunk, being dumb are all the weakest most inane reasons to sight for the unseating of the incumbent Bush, an incumbent that still has 48 to 51% of the population in his corner at any given moment. It’s too late now, but what made this vote a referendum on Bush boiled down to the war strategy that was drawn up by the administration’s civilian leaders in the Pentagon and is the only issue that holds up unquestioned in why Bush should have been removed from office.
This is not about the rational for war (questionable), not about the execution of the war(the troops executed
perfectly), it is about the plans that were drawn up and approved by the Bush administration (WRONG).The military minds that have successfully mapped the war strategies for Kuwait, Kosovo and Somalia (and in progress Afghanistan) and have been reinventing the military since Vietnam and were at opposite ends of the war strategy spectrum with Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and other civilian strategists in the Pentagn. The insurgency and problems in Iraq are not like 9/11 where we were caught off guard, Bush is lying when he talks of the Iraq hardships as a surprise. There were high-level military minds and more importantly Secretary Powell who had the ear of the President, and offered real and better contingency plans. Bush clearly chose the strategy laid out by the Secretary of Defense(SoD) office, that being a smaller, swifter, supposedly less expensive operation that could strike quickly as the best option and they based much of this on success in Afghanistan - but that was more of an overthrow of Kabul that didn’t have Iran and Syria as neighbors and was mainly controlled by non-taliban tribal warlords outside of Kabul. I don’t recall ever hearing about needing thousands of National Guard troops in Iraq before the war - Who should really only be guarding the borders, weapon depots and other Iraqi infrastructure.
- this isn’t about removing Sadaam Hussein or whether the world more safe
- this isn’t about the justification for war, or WMD’s or rape chambers, or abu-graid
- this isn’t even about building a coalitionThis is about who made the strategy, the macro war plans - we didn’t see a Powell and Schwartzkopf like in Gulf War I, we saw Rumsfeld and a joint chiefs guy keeping a low-profile. I don’t even know his name. We are at war and the only person I’ve heard of General Franks, who no offense to him, is not a Schwartzkopf or Powell. I know more about Newt Gingrich’s influence on the war strategy than that of the Chair of the Joint Chiefs. This is about the fact that a more comprehensive and more thought out plan for pre and post Iraq was on the table and the administration chose not to take it. This was clearly in the hands of Bush, not the Congress, nor a senator when it came to this all-important decision. I don’t believe there is a side a take on this, the strategy undertaken by the Secretary of Defense was clearly wrong and the president chose this strategy and has defended it and has not held the SoD nor himself accountable. Bush has actually made this a positive in his campaign by stating he wouldn’t change a thing. The execution of the war strategy was perfectly executed by our troops and military leaders, but the policy was poorly planned and based on selective use of intelligence, ideology, politics and lack of war experience, not to mention disregarding the collective brain and genuity of experienced military leaders.
What I cannot believe is that Kerry did not adop this as his main line of attack and pummeled Bush on this - Nor that many in the ranks of military supported Bush. You can clearly convey that the troops should be commended for the valor and execution with which they have fought a hard war, while clearly pointing the criticism to the administration and civilian leaders in the Pentagon. In my opinion every soldier stationed in Iraq should be awarded an additional medal for exceeding the expectations of such a
poorly derived war strategy.Again this is not about the rational for war (questionable), not about the execution of the war(the troops executed perfectly), it is about the plans that were drawn up and approved by the Bush administration (WRONG). Of course I can always hope that this less divisive rational build in the polls public opinion and congressional leaders to call for some kind of change, be it removing Rumsfeld or more unlikely Bush…
Posted by dan mullins on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:42 AM Looks like my man is gonna be around for another term. Quick, losers, start formulating conspiracy theories.
Posted by Ted on Nov 3, 2004 at 11:51 AM November 2, 2004 was a great day for America!
George Bush received more votes than any President in our nation’s history.
George Bush received a majority of the votes cast - while Bill Clinton always received less than 50%.
Republicans have expanded their hold on both the Senate and the House.
Tom Daschle has been given his pink slip.
With the Executive and Legislative branches nailed down, our next acquisition will be the Supreme Court.
We have collectively told the looney left to go away and let the grown-ups run the country. Or, in the immortal words of Theresa Heinz Kerry, we told you all to “Shove it!”.
I know that you people thought it was really cool when that looney bitch sneaked into the Republican convention with her useless protest against Dick Cheney. In fact, she was profiled in a positive light on this very site. But I told you then to laugh it up while you could, because the time was coming when you would all have your sorry asses handed to you. I was right, you were wrong. Deal with it!
So, goodbye George Soros, MoveoOn.org, Michael Moore, Tom Daschle, Jimmy Carter, Dan Rather, Al Gore, Bruce Springsteen, Ben Afleck, Barbara Streisand, Garrison Keilor, France, Germany, other assorted socialists Euro-trash, and all of the other nutjobs who now hang their heads in shock, depression, and disgust. But most especially, goodbye to the two Johns and their clueless wives. You gave it your best shot, and you lost - big time. The power you thought was your birthright has eluded you yet again, and your misery is music to my ears.
Buh-bye to all of you, and good riddance to all of you.
The Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:27 PM It is sentiments like so-called “Patriot“‘s that worry me most about the Beast that has awakened so full in this country. Let’s face it: the U.S. has never lived up to its ideals concerning inclusiveness and equality. But now we have people conflating the idea of patriotism with a direct, hostile rejection of those ideals. It is a New America that they want, one that is created in their image. Radical, brutal, exclusive, and a place apart from the life of the “world”.
As always, however, we must maintain hope, and hope can only lead to change if we try to understand that hostility, that venom. And we have to root it out in ourselves. And then we have to communicate from a position of respect.
Courage.
Posted by Paul on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:39 PM The fact that a protester has to ‘sneak in’ to Bush events tells the wole story.
Tell me, Patriot. Do you make more than $100K a year? Cause if you don’t, the vampires you support are going to bleed you dry. You’ll be paying taxes out the ass to service the deficit, and the guys in the mansions will not. Who’ll be crying then? You, or your kids, will get drafted and come home with stumps. Will you be crowing then? And stop calling yourself a patriot. You don’t know the meaning of patriotism.
Posted by Tom Buckner on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:43 PM Paul, I’m curious: Were you born without a spine, or did you have it removed later in life?
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:48 PM There you go. Thanks for proving my point, “Patriot”. I can only hope that you are just really young and think that this is a game, without any real consequnces. And I hope that you come to your senses. Maybe the millions of unemployed and underemployed will come to mean something to you. Maybe the tens of thousands of civilians that have been killed in the last few years in the name of the United States will become real human beings to you. And maybe you will develop some sense of respect for your fellow citizens, even when they disagree with you.
Grow up, “Patriot”. This is not a game.
Posted by Paul on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:55 PM Paul wrote: “Maybe the tens of thousands of civilians that have been killed in the last few years in the name of the United States will become real human beings to you.”
----------
Paul,
Maybe the millions of aborted babies murdered in the wombs of their mothers will become real human beings to you - but I doubt it. Spare me your selective compassion you bleedin’ Marxist piece of filth and get your sorry ass to France.
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 3:09 PM Okay Patriot, Ted, Fat Tony , ect… you won, you voted for Bush and whether you were for him or more just to silence his detractors, evidently you won… so gloat, boast, plant the Bush flag on mount leftist hollywood liberal and celebrate as the Kerry voters would have done. If there is any true unity in this nation it is the fact that voters on both sides were not really as for their candidates as much as they were just against the blowhards on the other side of the fence they found annoying.
So when you’re done, and please do have a good time ...pop open the viagra ...say whoooo! shake it to the toby keith—but when you’re done just remember the onus is on you and the true, pragmatic republicans to knock some sense into the radicals in your party, those flilly talk-tough sissies that are making the giant sucking sound in your party’s red-blooded jugular. The’re great at elections, but not great republicans.
If electing Bush was your sole struggle, I am sorry for you… If you want to parlay the passion and grass-roots enthusiasm that elected that jackass to let him know who’s boss and make him clean out his cabinet, learn how to run a war and get his priorities straight, you’ll have really won.
whoooo!
Posted by ric flair on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:03 PM Ric wrote: “If there is any true unity in this nation it is the fact that voters on both sides were not really as for their candidates as much as they were just against the blowhards on the other side of the fence they found annoying.”
My reply: Ric, I know that liberals never let facts get in the way of their dementia, but the surveys have shown that 82% of the people that voted for Bush, voted FOR him, not AGAINST Kerry. Whereas only 56% of Kerry voters voted FOR him, with the remainder voting AGAINST Bush.
Chew on that, hotshot!
Patriot
P.S. Bush’s priorities ARE straight. That’s why he was re-elected.
Regardless, thanks for sharing your suffering for all to see. It’s a thing of beauty.
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:16 PM oh - and that posting by dan at 9:42 AM was sure a good read… if we really want to piss off someone on the right, that doesn’t solve anything, we can all do that, and we can get the sophomoric response, which then leads us to assume they are fascists, or small-minded, but really it usually just means they don’t like to be told what to believe…
but when you write something more empirical, that really is brought out to truely discuss based on the content and not to get a reaction out of the other person, well it is refreshing and speaks to what we are capable of, not to shock, get a reaction, or to argue. But just to say here is my position, here’s how I came to it, whether you are for or against a position doesn’t matter, you’re a logically minded person, so here is the deal…
whoooo!!!
Posted by ric flair on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:21 PM Ric, I already showed you to be factually wrong on your assertion. At least be man enough to admit it. Obfuscation will not work on me.
And may your pain linger,
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:44 PM “Patriot”
I read your emotional posting about the millions of abortions. I can’t resolve that. You and I believe differently.
I have also read the rest of your postings in this string. I have a question: Do you consider yourself a Christian?
John
Posted by John Gillmore on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:53 PM John, I consider myself to be a person sickened by infanticide and those who support it.
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 5:38 PM Patriot (is this dennis miller?)
RE: “Ric, I already showed you to be factually wrong on your assertion. At least be man enough to admit it. Obfuscation will not work on me.”
I’m not sure what that had to do with my posting at 5:21. That was just an observation, not even a reply to your data, nor even aimed at you. But if we must go there, the exit poll data was way off anyways. If it had to do with my opinion of the posting by dan 9:42 AM - I didn’t see any points to counter that and thought that it was a well formed argument that could have been written by someone of any political affiliation.
You can’t win with you, can you? But hope that is just 82% of you wishing me lingering pain. 100% of me thanks 18% of you for.. with a 5% margin of error.
Hey, basically my original statement was just based on I think there are some Republicans that I respect, more so than Democrats, and Bush is not one of them. If McCain were on the ticket in ‘00 or ‘04, I guess I’d be a red-state-patriot too. Democrats are spineless, Nader is a baffoon and Bush is a jackass. I don’t need a poll to tell me otherwise.
...and if you are truly a patriot, i thank you for your bravery, if not please be one:
www.goarmy.com/contact/how_to_join.jsp
Posted by ric flair on Nov 3, 2004 at 6:39 PM Ric wrote: “But if we must go there, the exit poll data was way off anyways.”
Ric, exit polling is not designed to give numbers on the horse race itself, but rather on the attitudes and opinions that influenced the voters in their decisions. On that count, it is an accurate measure.
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 6:52 PM Paul,
Maybe the millions of aborted babies murdered in the wombs of their mothers will become real human beings to you - but I doubt it. Spare me your selective compassion you bleedin’ Marxist piece of filth and get your sorry ass to France.
Patriot
And why don’t you get YOUR sorry ass to Iraq or Afghanistan if you are SUCH a patriot????????
Posted by AJ on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:18 PM I hate to say it folks, but this country has always been susceptible to fascism; many US government officials praised Mussolini’s crushing of unions and other leftists, and they looked favorably upon Hitler.
The racists are intent on turning back the clock, and they don’t care who they run over to do so. We’ve seen a concerted effort by rich, racist, billionaires funding think tanks (Scaifes, Olins, Bradleys funding Heritage, Federalists, AEI, etc) to shape public opinion to their liking over the past several decades, and they’ve worked like a charm. They’ve succeeded in bringing back to the surface the evil present at the core of America’s people since its inception.
Thus, “liberal” has become a word in which those of us on the left run from. Reactionary right-wingers tend to see everything in black and white, so “liberals” are the same thing as “terrorists” in their primitive minds.
I’m waiting for the day when these far-right fundamentalists decide to cleanse this country of its undesirables (white progressives, non-whites, homosexuals, etc.). The foundations for such action has already been laid, folks. The so-called Christians are just as fervent in their fundamentalism as the Taliban and al-Qaida, and they plan on dragging all of us into their neo-Crusades and Armageddon. Bush was appointed by God (they really believe this!!!) to lead them in this battle between good and evil, light and dark. I know it sounds crazy, but these evangelicals are fanatical sheep who will do ANYTHING for their chosen leader!
I’m a non-violent person, but I’m seriously considering taking advantage of the fact that the assault weapons ban has lapsed.
Posted by pheromone 7.1 on Nov 4, 2004 at 3:49 AM okay, i voted for kerry, i am a liberal, against the war, for same-sex marriage, etc. however. i think the main reason americans support the war (at least passively) is because they can’t relate to people outside the country as humans; iraqis just aren’t real… which, i think is exactly how women who have abortions experience (or don’t) what they do. the contact with life is missing. i’m not judging, i’m only observing.
Posted by fairykiss on Nov 4, 2004 at 5:12 AM I liked the dan mullins view up there, and wonder why ITT doesn’t just dump all the inane ranting by some character writing under a different names. It’s clutter and hardly contributes to a sane debate. Dan: The war in Iraq, seen in cold light, had numerous objectives other than the ones put forth by the Bush administration. Most half way intelligent people know it. There is the oil business, there is the foothold in the Middle East (which is objectively speaking a good idea if your intent is to use force in enforcing diplomacy and… it ensured GWB’s reelection and covered up his ridiculous economic policies. Take the war away, he would have been packing his bags and American would have been happy. I can imagine what he was thinking while reading that little tale of the gal and the goat: “I can’t believe it, this is exactly what I have been praying for!” And if he wasn’t, then his advisers were. Because Sept 11 created a mass hysteria in the USA that has been kept alive and fomented ever since. It is not particular to any specific “ism”, it is Orwellian, and is a method used by totalitarian regimes to keep people constantly distracted. It is worrisome, indeed, because of the direct attack on individual liberties. On the other hand, it is not the first time we have gone through the process as a nation, and we have always recovered. Just think of the 1920s. There was prohibition, lots of get-rich-quick stuff, and the brooding Bible Belt worried about the immoral cities filled with the agents of Satan. Then the shit hit the fan and spread throughout the world. And America woke up to her finest president ever, a true leader.
I would have given GWB the benefit of the doubt after 9/11, even though I considered him incompetent before. I waited for a man to say: Have no fear, a man to hold a steady hand on the helm. A man to comfort and start working hard on truly getting rid of terrorism, by working with allies and seeking the cause. A man and statesman who would not fall into the trap laid out by Osama bin Laden, namely of knee-jerking to war. Instead, what emerged, was a yapping lapdog, a second-rate actor, an adoloescent of such incredible competence, in short a ridiculous little figure without visions, withour flexibility, without the sense of history. A puppet. Here is a man who was no match for OBL. Even if he gets caught, Bin Laden has already “won” this war, sad to say. GWB went to war to wow the rubes and armchair patriots. And for Halliburton, and for the neocon agenda, and for other reasons. What he failed to see, and America has, too, is that he was enticed into war. In chess we do that as black: Let white build up a strong center and then whittle it away on the wings with as many tricks as you can find on the board. Bush is no chess player. He is an idiot. He is a poor, psychopathic sod. Unfortunately, lots of people suffer when poor psychopathic sods are given more power than they can handle.
But fascism?? No, we are beyond isms in our world. We have even grown beyond left and right, terms that grew out of the French revolution and that refer not so much to a political philosophy than an energy. The Neocons have a fair amount in common with the Jacobins (seated left in the National Assembly) in their radicalism and unilateralism. The Democrats and moderate Republicans these days are more like the Girondins, who sat on the right.
Posted by Talleyrand on Nov 4, 2004 at 10:36 AM To all the fanatics and trolls on this page.
There are people (not left or right) who are not scared of you.
The Liberals might be pussies, but they are slowly realizing that armed resistence against the likes of you will be inevitable.BRING IT ON!
I am willing to die for this country and what it really stands for - that is SECULAR principles of reason and truth - not some militant notion of GOD.
I would die to protect the consitution from your ilk - who seem to come from a different planet.
In case you are wondering—I think your statements are full of shit.
While you save babies, you are ok with killing 100,000 innocent arabs (was your grandaddy in the KKK?), while you leave your Stepford wife home with the kids, ever get a little head from a Vegas hooker?
You go to church like a madman, but you have no problem exploiting 3rd world workers and think it is good for them to make shit money so you can buy your beer holder from Walmart.
Man - I am sick of you people and your hypocritical bullshit.
If another Civil War is what you want - so be it. We kicked your asses the first time, we can do it again.
Posted by Fight the Fanatics on Nov 4, 2004 at 1:38 PM Fight the Fanatics:
Come-on, the public discourse in the country is not on the fringe of civil unrest. It’s okay to always be prepared to expect the worst, okay to not trust anybody, but the god-fearing folks, fanatics and trolls you mentioned really amount to armchair patriots…
I mean look, we’re all just annonymous guys, media hounds with nothing better to do - I don’t think you, I nor 99.9% of the people you come across on these discussion boards are much about armed resistance, offense or whatnot.
- I’m out
Posted by ric flair on Nov 4, 2004 at 3:10 PM Fairykiss wrote: “I think the main reason americans support the war (at least passively) is because they can’t relate to people outside the country as humans.”
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Every time I think I’ve heard the dumbest thing a liberal has ever said, I come across something like this. Astounding!
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 4, 2004 at 6:21 PM Talleyrand wrote: “Take the war away, he would have been packing his bags and American would have been happy.”
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Wrong. Take the war away, and 9/11, the reason FOR the war, and the economy would have been much better - and Bush would have won by an even larger margin.
The inability of liberals to make an accurate analysis of events will continue to hasten their current path of marginalization.
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 4, 2004 at 7:03 PM Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about.
Posted by Mark Twain on Nov 4, 2004 at 8:34 PM Patriot- your kind is obvious. You get enough Fox News under your belt and you’re running with the big dog intellectuals. You’re such a real patriot, I bet you have the biggest flag on your block. You’re really a coward that can’t fight his own battles so you’ve come in on the coattails of a winner, life is grand. It’s not OK to abort unwanted babies, babies that are probably better off going back to where they were before, but it’s OK to kill hundreds of thousands in the name of god. You make me ill, you and all the others like you. Maybe you should read the bible instead of having it force fed to you. Face the facts of your miniscule existence, one day the world will be better off because your gone.
Fight the Fanatics
Great passion, for your sake and mine I hope that this country doesn’t collapse into what you expect. But, if it does, know there are others out there fighting with you.Bless you all for taking the time to share your voices- that is patriotism and a lesson for the patriot.
Power to the people.
Posted by yours truly on Nov 4, 2004 at 10:30 PM ric flair
Honestly. I think you’re wrong about the people on these boards.
Great and patriotic citizens like Ted, Patriot, and Fat Tony are the ones to be worried about. The backlash they will have when the rest of us break out is what worries me. Can’t you see? they won, but they still act like they’re losing. Always the victim. That is how the far-right has amassed such a following, they grab them with the propaganda and this victimization game. It’s all so pathetic and sad. And patriot wants to acuse others of having no backbone, that’s rich when your just a scared little sheep. But, our shephard president will lead us into the arms of the lord. He’s moral… as moral as they make them in hell.
Posted by yours truly on Nov 4, 2004 at 10:47 PM “Take the war away, he would have been packing his bags and American would have been happy.”
This is not a question of liberal or conservative, it’s a plain fact. I repeat it, because some ranters haven’t understood something here apparently. The war at the present time is not affecting the economy directly. The debt incurred is purely on paper and its effects will only be felt later on. In fact, in times of war, economies tend to fare better, for a while anyway. On the other hand this is not a war, it’s a military adventure of limited scope. And the polling showed it: People were unhappy with the economy, but were even more insecure about changing horses in the midst of a war. Believe me, the war is in great part pure propüaganda. Those GIs and Iraqi civilians are dying for no reason whatsoever. I am amazed at how naive people can be.
The current woes of the American economy are due to the corporate favoritism of the Bush administration, which has swallowed the IMF pill that already destroyed several economies notably in Latin America. Remember Reagan and Thatcher praising the mass-murderer Pinochet? Well, in 1983, the good general reversed all the deregulation and privatzation policies dictated by his corporate masters and went on a massive government hiring program. He had to: The country was on its last legs.
For those who need a careful lesson: The idea of the Bushistas is to let corporations earn a lot, and ultimately start spreading the wealth downward. The idea is not a bad one. In some places and in another century it kind of worked: Germany for example, where, until recently, many major corporations like Siemens, kept a social sense about them. They built houses for their employees, schools, gave them vacations, offered social security and health benefits, etc… And they did so to coopt the labor movement, or better yet, to work hand in hand with the labor movement. But Germany still manufactures things. It makes products, and damned good ones. In the 60s, America’s economy was 25% manufacturing. Today, that figure is 13% and dropping. The biggest killer was the first trickledowner: Reagan. The money granted by the Bush tax cuts is not trickling down, its pouring out in the wrong direction. Patriotic Wal-Mart’s products are mostly manufactured abroad, Communist China, for example. The business of business used to be business. Today, it’s profits based on money-shifting. That does not produce jobs. Plain and simple. But America has always been very anti-labor. It’s the south that still had slavery… and let us remember it’s in the south that GWB has his big constituency. That is no coincidence.
Posted by Talleyrand on Nov 5, 2004 at 12:43 AM For those who are NOT convinced that Bush is a third ANTI-christ and bears an incredible resemblence to HITLER:
Just imagine this: translate his most ferocious speaches into GERMAN and what does he say then huh?
I’ll tell you what he says: here are a FEW expl:
“DER SIEG IST UNSER!!” (we shall prevail)
“WIR HABEN DIE BESTER ARMEE DER WELT!!!” (We have the finest military force in the world)
“WIR WERDEN DEN FEIND VERNICHTEN” (We shall crush them, hunt them down)
-----------------
these are just a few examples but there’s plenty stuff, seek for yourself.
For those who still don’t see that it’s all a renewed conquest for resources: They have installed a shadow-goverment remember? Well: I’m not pessimistic about anything, just REA-listic!
If Americans would make revolution, they would be declared terrorists.
It’s time to impeach, but hey,...if half of america wants to preach about moral values and sinn,… that doesn’t go well together with fucking up the rest of the world!
As a foreigner in this issue, I cannot speak for the entire American continent,....BUT I DO SPEAK for myself and ALL the people who are against corporate fascist power:
Hitler was visible, as a fascist, Bush isn’t visible, they fight an invisible war at an invisible enemy. But I see,...and so do half of the American people,…
Be assured,...the rest of the world is keeping an eye open for you ‘Democratz’ (what’s left of them anyway)
If there’s no Action, we’ll ALL live in a fascist terror nation across the world! With a nut-case christian fundamentalist in the office!
Posted by CRAEZ on Nov 5, 2004 at 3:57 AM Interesting CRAEZ… Reminds me of a comedian in Vienna who used to read Mein Kampf with a thick Viennese dialect. It was hilarious…
Speaking of Hitler: Falluja… reminds me of the clearing of the Warsaw Ghetto. And makes me sick.
Posted by Talleyrand on Nov 5, 2004 at 1:16 PM CRAEZ~
Thank you for the German lesson...as scary and familiar as it may be. But most of all, thank you for the reassurance that the rest of the world is watching. Obviously, though our numbers are large and we are passionately committed to saving our nation and being a stable force in the world, we need all the support we can get. It’s as if we’re in the belly of the beast, wounded but still strong, determined to be heard and to (non-violently) fight our way through this. For the good of all.
I was just watching Empire Strikes Back...hadn’t seen it in years, and I caught it just as Yoda was advising Luke (I’m paraphrasing) to not operate from a place of hate, that it can only lead to the dark side. I believe we all know this, but there are times, at least in my experience, that it helps to be reminded of what I know. The dark side is what we are dealing with, and we are stronger than that. So since I don’t believe in coincidence, my instinct was to pass the message on. For what it’s worth.
I have to say it…
May the Force be with us.
(sorry ;-) Desperate times sometimes call for words that may make you cringe and/or roll your eyes...but hopefully while smiling.
Peace to all~
Posted by Steph (aka Peacemonger) on Nov 5, 2004 at 11:25 PM Me again, I just want to add:
I realize that while myself and others envision a non-violent movement, not everyone sees it that way. I mean no disrespect, nor did I intend to speak for all on “our side”. But I’m willing to bet a month’s worth of chocolate-- no, a year’s worth-- that to resolve this peacefully is what we all want, whether or not it’s realistic. I cannot assume we must all take the exact same path, though I will continue to visualize us on a path of peace. (yeah yeah, visualize whirled peas.) I just hope that whatever actions we as individuals choose to take or not take, that we make that choice from the best possible place inside ourselves. A long and difficult struggle lies ahead, of course we all know this. May we have the strength and clarity required to face these coming days.
Posted by Steph on Nov 6, 2004 at 12:09 AM Comparing the Bush administration to National Socialism in Germany is not hyperbole. The Nuremberg indictment charged the Nazis with the “ill treatment and deportation of civilian population in occupied territories.” The U.S. is guilty of this at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. The Nazis were charged with “the wanton destruction of cities, towns, and villages.” The Iraq war has largely been situated in and around civilian centers resulting in the deaths of an estimated 100,000 noncombattants, half of whom have been women and children. The Iraq invasion constituted an act of agression in violation of international treaties, which was the primary war crime as cited by the Nuremberg tribunal. The indictment also cited the systematic torture of civilians with the object of obtaining information. This was perpetrated at Abu Ghraib. The United States is a signatory to the Nuremberg charter, as well as North Atlantic Treaty that states in article 1, “The parties undertake . . . to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means . . . and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force.” The acts of the Bush administration clearly demonstrate that the U.S. word stands for nothing. In my opinion, this has the potential for rearmament and World War III. Hungary on Nov. 3, the day after Bush’s reelection has called for Europe’s rearmament, and China is rapidly building ballistic missiles to meet America’s provocation. This was reported by the Pentagon in June of 2004 to Congress. Bills in both the House and Senate reintroducing universal conscription are awaiting action. As for Bush saying there will be no draft during the campaign, well LBJ also said that in the 1960s, but enacted the draft anyway. I respectfully disagree with Bleifuss--I think we are looking very much like Germany.
Posted by ptaka on Nov 6, 2004 at 12:47 AM Fight the Fanatics,
After reading the neo-con agenda posted by Frank Gaffney of the Center for Security Policy, and careful reflection; yes, a resistance movement in the U.S. will be necessary against the international criminals of the Bush administration.
The days of discourse have passed.
Posted by ptaka on Nov 6, 2004 at 2:03 PM what is the dumbest Kerryite catch-phrase from the campaign?
a) vote or die
b) reporting for duty
Posted by Kaiser Bill on Nov 6, 2004 at 8:47 PM Has the Bush White House injected religion into politics on an unprecedented scale or has
another leader of a Western nation, in the past, sought to portray himself close to God?
The following quotes are either from President Bush or the other leader. See if you can
correctly identify who said what.1.“I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job.”
2. “But there is something else I believe, and that is that there is a God. . . . And this God
again has blessed our efforts during the past years.”
3. “God told me to strike at [our enemy] and I struck them, and then he instructed me to
strike at [their leader], which I did . . .”4. “I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people to be
allowed to wage this battle.”
The correct answers are: Number 1 & 3 are quotes from President Bush and 2 & 4 are quotes
of deceased Nazi Fuhrer Adolf Hitler.Several thousand years ago, didn’t a kind and wise man warn us to beware of wolves in
sheep’s clothing?
Posted by Greg Bacon on Nov 7, 2004 at 1:05 AM To Greg Bacon, I think the passage you are referring to is:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [Matthew 7:15]
_____________________________________________I could list many relevant scriptures, yet they would only have meaning to those who interpret the Word as I do. I can also entertain the distinct possibility that my Biblical interpretation is wrong. To each, his own.
Yes, I am one of those Bible thumping, Jesus freaks. Run, Run!!! before it’s too late.
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. [Jude 1:17-19]
Hm-mm-m-m???
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. [Matthew 24:10-12]
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. [Matthew 24:24, 25]
I have already identified myself as a right-leaning Christian in one of the other threads....one that did not vote for Bush. On the other hand, I would not consider voting for Kerry either. The truth of the matter is, that I would
prefer to live in a non-secular, Christian nation, but I don’t. Therefore I must learn to accept and live with things I don’t agree with. I don’t have to submit to them, just tolerate them and respect the rights of others to their own opinions and beliefs. My existence here is serve the Lord to the best of my ability, not to criticize and judge others because they don’t think or act as I do. That is God’s business, not mine.“And so my advice is, leave these men alone. If what they teach and do is merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown. But if it is of God, you will not be able to stop them, lest you find yourselves fighting even against God.”
[Acts 5:38-39, TLB]I went third party with a vote of conscience for Michael Peroutka. I vote strictly as a non-partisan, for the person I believe will best serve the needs of the public and honor (not rape) the Constitution of the United States. In my opinion, neither Kerry nor Bush fit the mold in this election. Words mean very little to me when they are not reflected in actions. I was totally disgusted by both candidates and the way they carried on their brutal, despicable campaigns. I saw no sign of Christ-like behavior in either of their campaigns. I was totally appalled by the way both candidates tried to use God as a tool to further their political aspirations and to win votes.(The old saying that anyone can talk the talk, but few can walk the walk).
There are three main principles to sound decision making in the Bible. I try to use them when making my decision on which candidate to vote for.
The first is to get the facts:
“What a shame--yes, how stupid!--to decide before knowing the facts!” [Proverbs 18:13 TLB]The second is to be open to new ideas:
“The intelligent man is always open to new ideas. In fact, he looks for them.” [Proverbs 18:15 TLB]The third is to hear both sides of the story:
“Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight.” [Proverbs 18:17 TLB]Needless to say why I had trouble voting for the two primary candidates.
My feelings about this is a matter of personal discernment to me, not judgment. I respect everyone’s “free will” choice to vote as they see fit, for whatever reason they choose. My prayers will be with President Bush, even though he was not my choice. I may not agree with all or most of his views, but I firmly believe that whoever is placed in the leadership of our country, it is done so by the will of God.
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [Romans 13:1,2]
Mind you now that this doesn’t mean that this is a blessing for America from God, only that it is his will for us. [Romans 13:1,2] applies to all nations of the world, not just America. By that token, we realize that it also applies, and has applied, to every despotic ruler that ever ruled anywhere on Earth. So we know by history that his will is not always a blessing, but quite apparently, it is sometimes punishment. I don’t profess to understand why God does things, I just accept by faith that He knows better than I do what His plans are.
There are many differing opinions on here and at least most of them are within the realm of possibility. As to the truth, which is the only acceptable constant in reality...wel-l-l-l.....I guess only time will tell. No matter how deep you bury a load of crap, or how much perfume you use to cover the scent, it still remains a load of crap. Truth Conquers All!!
The bickering and hatefullness that has been displayed on this site and largely everywhere in America today only cements the reality that America has become a seriously divided nation and unless we put aside our differences and start working together for a common goal, we are sealing our own fate. There is a proven constant in warfare that every enemy is aware of. “Divide and Conquer”. It would seem that although we win many battles, we may be playing into the enemy’s hand without even realizing it.
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God”. [Matthew 5:9]
Posted by Terry Stagman on Nov 7, 2004 at 5:20 PM I just wanted to add a resource to the poster who talked about the United States own history of fascism. Edwin Black has written a book called “War Against the Weak” in which he documents with original sources the systematic elimination of the “unfit” by the US eugenics movement. Very interesting reading. It should especially be read by those right wing people in the south who are not rich, white and connected. My family was one of the victims of this early action. It can happen again.
Posted by jwirr on Nov 7, 2004 at 5:38 PM Terry Stagman,
Get real. I submit to the authority of no war criminal like Bush and his Israeli cronies, better known as the neo-cons. Let’s face it, what you suggest led to the first holocaust. The irony here is that Jews, Wolfowitz, Feith, Wurmser, Perle, et al., are perpetrating this charade, because the Likudniks have completely failed the Israeli people in the intifada. And of course, if Israelis have been forced to resort to snookering the American public into doing their dirty work, perhaps its because Bush I and Clinton needed to lay down the law to Arafat. However, when this operation comes unravelled, as it surely will, AIPAC and AEI better get out of Dodge quickly. By gum, I think I’m beginning to hear such right wing reaction even as I write--is that the CIA, FBI, General Zinni, and a host of others leaking information to the public about Israeli espionage. I think I’ll go now and watch the Macedonians beat up on the Persians.
Posted by ptaka on Nov 8, 2004 at 12:39 AM Say again? I was agreeing with you in my prior statement! Except that back in the early 1900s they were not documenting any connection with Isreal other than that Jews were considered one of the “unfits” like the rest of us who were the first victims of the “holocaust” - the American victims. I sure as heck am not a bushie supporter as you infer!!!! The book is the best and possibly the only history of those early days in America when we wrote the map that Hitler used to kill 10 million innocent people. We sure as heck are not taught this history in schools. I happen to know that bushie already has plans, which he used in Texas, to identify all mentally ill persons - how far is that away from what the eugenics movement of the 1900s did? I’d say not far. Especially when the movers and shakers in the first movement were the Harriman and Carnegie families who were closely associated with the bush/walker families in those days. The reasons I suggested that various groups of southern bush supporters read the book is because a lot of them are amoung the poor immigrant families that were targeted in those days. Today they are voting for their own persecutors. Scary.
Posted by jwirr on Nov 8, 2004 at 9:04 AM fuck you patriot you non serving missinformed little fascist ass i would like to spit in your eye but i dont want to dirty my spittle you nazi
Posted by fascist killer on Nov 8, 2004 at 2:56 PM Jwirr,
Are you responding to ptaka, because ptaka was responding to the comment by Terry Stagman who proposed, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”
I don’t believe God ordained G.W. Bush to be President--it was more likely Diebold. Stagman’s logic was the same used to justify slavery.
Posted by ptaka on Nov 8, 2004 at 4:56 PM ptaka, Sorry I forgot how this board was run and when they sent me the response notice I jumped the gun thinking you were answering my post. It seem you and I have very little we would argue about on this issue. Carry on.
Posted by jwirr on Nov 8, 2004 at 9:33 PM Well ptaka??, I am for real. I even use my full name wherever and whenever I post.
You may or may not understand where I’m coming from though. I don’t ever really expect everyone, or anyone for that matter to agree with me or my reasoning. I will say though, that Christianity gets a bad name and a bad rap from the extremists. It would seem that many of them actually lose sight of it’s real meaning, or simply interpret it wrong. But as I’ve said before, each to their own. Also as I said before, I don’t really know that my interpretation is correct. I figure I’ll find that out on my day of judgment. I do however believe in Bible doctrine(God’s Word), as it is written. I may not always like it, or fully understand the reasoning behind it, but I accept it. That’s what faith is all about. Am I a self-righteous Christian? I don’t think so...at least I hope I’m not. I’m a sinner like everyone else and I never expect to get it all right. I do try my best, but I often fall short. (Thank the Lord, I have [1 John 1:9] to fall back on whenever I fail). Something that many Christians or so-called Christians are hard pressed to admit.
The Christian community as a whole can’t even agree on Bible interpretation, much the reason that there are now 2003 different denominations of Christianity in America alone. All of them with their different interpretations and beliefs, many of which constantly fight among themselves. Each one of them believes they are right and all the others are wrong. I myself, am a non-denominational Christian. I treat everyone the same, Baptist, Catholic, Jew, Gay, Muslim, or Atheist....it really doesn’t matter to me. The Bible says “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. It doesn’t say “Love thy heterosexual Christian neighbor as thyself”. It is not my job to pass judgment, just to follow the Commandments, as they are written(not that I don’t fail at this quite often also).
I don’t understand the hard-core evangelistic movement anymore than you do. As far as I can tell from my Bible study, Evangelism is about speading the Good News of Christ and witnessing for Christ....not shoving it down the throats, or forcing it upon others through constitutional ammendments. The Lord is looking for people that follow Him by their own free will, not at gunpoint.
I have no problem understanding your logic or your parallels to Hitler. I see them also and I don’t like it anymore than you do. I also don’t agree with the Bush administration or the Iraq War anymore than you do, but the fact stands (at least for now) that the majority of American citizens, for reasons I will probably never understand, voted to re-elect him. I may not like it, but I will learn to live with it and hope and pray that the next election will turn out differently.
I have been heavily involved in many types of activism for many years now. I protest for human rights, I am strictly anti-nuclear(nucular as in the Bush dictionary), anti-un-necessary, un-just wars, Native American rights (which just falls back to human rights), and I am gearing up to go to the SOA(WHISC) protest this month. I will stand up to and protest anything I don’t believe in as long as it stays within the laws of God.
So just because we don’t see things from the same viewpoint, don’t treat me as if I’m the enemy. We may have different methods, but we work toward the same goals.
Posted by Terry Stagman on Nov 9, 2004 at 4:53 PM Actually I used my full name in a post many moons ago to this board. Yes, as long as elections are legitimate, there are reasons to submit to authority. You accept the general will if in your estimation it is right? Majoritarianism can no more provide grounds for U.S. action in Iraq, than it could for the institution of slavery. Bush now wishes to claim authority for a more agressive foreign policy based upon a larger popular vote over 2000. I say he must show he was right initially based upon evidence. This in my mind is the difference between a theocracy, and a secular state. Whether faith and reason will continue to coexist harmoniously. I intend no offense to you personally.
Posted by ptaka (aka Perry Taka) on Nov 10, 2004 at 11:48 PM I can understand the comparisons of our current President to Hitler. Although I find this to be rather cruel I must agree.
It was the belief of Hitler that he was doing the work of God by abolishing thousands of Jewish individuals. He felt that he was ridding the world of people that had no right to live anyway.
Mr. Bush blatantly lied to his country, he is a supercilious man with only one agenda in mind, make more money. It is a travesty of this country to have this man as not only our commander in chief, but to be elected (NOT re-elected) for a second term.
I will be succint in my analysis and comment on this: Bush supporters proclaim that he is moral man with God as his leader, if that were so then we would know that some of his policies and stances could NOT be of God. Just as Hitler Mr. Bush portrays himself as a just man with a big heart and I for one believe this is true, he has a big heart… for billionaires.
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