A funny thing happened on the way to the victory party. For progressives, the presidential campaign that drew unprecedented amounts of resources, passion, and participation ended in disaster. Bush won in large part by using one tool of the early progressive movement—the ballot measure—to whip up state-level hostility against same-sex marriage and entice a large slice of his supporters to… return to article
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Reader Comments (9)Page 1 of 1 pagessee the “article” Lets Get Real.
Maybe all the ballots were faked! Maybe there wasn’t even an election at all, and we were all fooled! Perhaps this is not even the US but some alien zoo. Could be, just ask Marko.
Clearly all parents want their teens to have access to abortion for any reason, especially if no notification is required. Clear Arnold stole his election too, since no right thinking person would vote for a Republican.
The hunt for conspiracy is on! And will continue, regardless of minor nuisances such as “facts”.
Posted by letsGetReal on Nov 16, 2004 at 12:45 PM If you remember way back liberals Hated referendums because they were the majority party and they felt it usurped their legislative power. Now as libertarian leaning conservative (smaller Gov’t) I think also that ballot initiatives and referendums are the way to go. Why -because I believe in the absolute goodnes of the people. Both red and blue and purple. I also believe in minimizing the feds power in favor of states rights. We don’t have to worry about slavery ever again and most major evils so why not?? I Think you see in these referendums that common sense prevails when it goes to the left and to the right. Look these politicians get into office and everyone wants a piece of them. Why not put forth honest simple questions to the people and let them decide. I know that we are supposed to have a “representative” form of government and that was designed by people who stand to benefit from it not the average joe&jane;. I think that to keep people happy and sane we need to get rid of more politicians and political money and go more directly to the people. just think what this last election cost in terms of dollars and what all that money could have bought for the American people.
Posted by redstate on Nov 16, 2004 at 3:10 PM Jeez Redstate.
Reading these pages one might think you have nothing better to do than foul these liberal pages with your federalism. Either you are a spontant genius, ready at an instants notice to foil any opponents argument, or you spend a lot of time here. Carefully crafting your crosseyed arguments to an audience of one, on the nose.
Now, an advice of a friend would be to expand your library. Get a colored buddy or two. Even make a penpal in Europe. How exotic. Perhaps learn another language. Perhaps two?
As a libertarian, why the f**k do you lean conservative? Smaller government? Newspeak dictates that conservative means bigger government. It seems to me these guys are in favor of more centralized control than any before them. My understanding of libertarians was that of some cool thinking customers. People that could actually think for themselves and counter the machine when it went out of line. I even consulted the dictionary. Webster was furious:
Main Entry: lib·er·tar·i·an
Pronunciation: “li-b&r;-’ter-E-&n;Function: noun
1 : an advocate of the doctrine of free will
2 a : a person who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty especially of thought and action b capitalized : a member of a political party advocating libertarian principles
- libertarian adjective
- lib·er·tar·i·an·ism /-E-&-"ni-z&m;/ nounSheeeet man. And you want to start roping down the will of women? You want to take away their right to choose? Rethink your position or dare to defy the dictionary. Not that it makes a frightening adversary, but at least be true to your convictions. The sisters deserve more respect. You are smarter than this.
Posted by notweny on Nov 16, 2004 at 10:14 PM my library is fine thank you. I read EVERYTHING I can get my hands on from jerry rubin to the Bible and a lot of the spectrum inbetween. i have had “colored” buddies and I speak three languages more or less fluently and have a few books on linguistics. Even tried to understand elvish from LOTR but thattakes awhile to wrap your mind & tounge around!
I guess I am libertarian with a right lean .I do think for myself and as I have stated elsewhere in this forum I used to be a hardcore leftie but got disillusioned with the self righteousness and pomposity of it all. I sensed a bit of facsim in the leftward movement that turned me off.
That’s what sucks about all this - it seems to force you to take sides almost. the women thing- well I am married to a pretty good one have 2 good step daughters. I dislike the arrogance of some women on the left who see sexism everywhere. I don’t understand how some of them can be so defensive of their rights while being so cavalier about others rights. What i mean is if you are for a women’s right to choose than you damn well better be for a woman’s (and man’s) right to choose to exercise their second ammendment rights.
I guess I come frome the Tom Robbins- Edward Abbey- Coyote- school of thought and just despise hypocrisy and better tham thou attitudes.
Posted by redstate on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:42 AM If I should be allowed to own a gun so as to defend my life and property, or even just for sporting purposes, why then should I not have the absolute right to do as I wish sexually with another consenting adult of my same gender? Do I not own this body? Why can I not join myself legally, spiritually, and physically to the one I love in a recognized marriage with all the privileges and benefits that go with it? How can conservatives pretend to uphold “liberty” while at the same time denying me the freedom to create a family with the one who wants to make a family with me? How can the public miss the inherent contradiction? Must we all follow the same religious customs, whether we believe in them or not? Must every relationship and legal association be subject to the scrutiny and approval of some sort of “majority”? These are NOT rhetorical questions! The fact that Bush was assisted in his re-election by people coming out in droves to support religiously tyrannical laws (yes, I mean the anti-marriage rights referenda) is sickening. It makes GWB’s return to office all the more galling. I guess if all I wanted was the right to own more wealth than I could ever waste in several lifetimes of profligacy, that would be OK, no legal obstacles then. Maybe if I wanted to own an arsenal of military-style weapons to scare away all the bad guys, then I’d be on the right track, yes? What the hell IS freedom, anyway, when it can have so many arbitrary and mutually contradictory versions? It’s a damned bitter pill to swallow, especially for one like me who identifies with America and the principles of personal liberty that inspired its founding. A miserable era we’re living in…
Posted by Kuya on Nov 18, 2004 at 12:28 AM I agree with you 100% Kuya.and that illustrates my point. It has becoming a pissing match over crumbs from the entire loaf of bread we already own. Don’t be so pessimistic about freedom it is still the highest of pursuits. The best way to obtain and preserve these freedoms is to negate the government interference with them. How can the Constitituion give rights only to have them butchered by beauracrats? Some things should be absolutely non- negotiable. The governmnent when you get married requires a legal contract to be signed to make it valid in its eyes.When did we ever sign the papers to give this right to the government so it could in turn give it back to us with it’s restrictions? I WOULDN’T sign those papers. Just a clarification on the gun thing. Most military weapons with the exception of sidearms are “full auto” which means as long as you hold the trigger back bullets will fly. semi auto means you pull the trigger for each shot and what most people don’t know is that you can apply for a federal “tax stamp” to own full auto( machine guns) or silencers- 300$ and an OK from your local police chief and you can get the full enchilada. Me I like flintlocks circa 1776.
Posted by redstate on Nov 18, 2004 at 2:58 PM I used to be a registered Libertarian, still think the basic idea is a great one but I my confidence in the basic good will of the citizenry has been maimed over the years. And it will require that good will, on a mass basis, to prevent demagogues and sectarian bullies from organizing anti-minority (in this case, anti-gay) assaults upon the freedom to love (or just screw) whomever one chooses in the future. Couldn’t agree more with the concept that freedom is the highest of pursuits, it goes along with my belief that “live and let live” is the highest ethic. However, when I look at history, I see so many examples where majoritarian attacks have occurred, 3 examples; the killing of Joseph Smith and the attacks upon the Mormons, slavery and the Jim Crow laws, and today the erosion of basic human rights (e.g. to create a legally recognized family) to people whose sexual behaviors are considered repugnant to fundamentalists and homophobes. In all these cases, the social and legal results have depended on government’s stance, whether sympathetic or neglectful (or assaultive, as with the anti-gay marriage laws that are the norm in so many states now). It’s a real conundrum; I have little basic faith in the use of strong authority as a way to improve society, but I also know what so often happens when the federal government doesn’t somehow compel localities to accept and protect the rights of minority groups that local people may dislike. My feeling is less a disillusionment with freedom as a concept, it’s really more a disillusionment with the idea that the majority of Americans will uphold the rights and freedoms of people they don’t identify with. Especially where the issue of sex is involved, honestly, so many American Christians have such a weird preoccupation with sex, they want it to be so very private and yet they’re so bloody invasive! Pushing their ideological agenda like that, seizing the law in order to coerce others and strip their rights, as if they actually owned for themselves the Entire Cosmic Truth. Truly bizarre and increasingly dangerous, especially now that “their boy” remains in the White House.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 18, 2004 at 7:50 PM I too was a registered libertarian in the past. I do think that a lot of their ideas are good. I WAS turned off by the privatization of things like National parks. I think some things should be privatized but not neccessarily Yellowstone! The libertarins have the CATO institute website and is worth visiting
About the anti -gay laws you mention . You forget SCOTUS just struck down anti sodomy laws in a few states a while back and that was a step forward for them. I believe that gay “marriage” is a VERY divisive issue in this country. I think in the end that “civil unions” will become the norm but not marriage in the biblical sense.
Alot of the religious backlash you see is in response to the ACLU fighting things like the Ten Commandments and getting rid of Christmas in schools. I need to predicate that I am religious but not a regular church goer or bible thumper-just someone who prays a lot. I see it as the folks who are the “religious right” have had their values denigrated and they will fight the “granting” if you will of rights to people that they see as immoral. It becomes a pissing match over rights. They all want to use the power of the state to legitimize and legalize their views and that is where i begin to bristle.
Posted by redstate on Nov 19, 2004 at 5:44 PM Well, the gay community had better gloat - they got themselves another 4 years of Bush. They raised a stink about wanting marriage rights and that got the balance tipped for Bush.
Posted by birchbark1 on Nov 28, 2004 at 8:16 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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