Freedom from Reality

Does **anyone** here know what Kerry got his Purple Hearts for? I mean, given all the talk and such, surely *someone* knows what he got them for, what his injuries were! We know about presidential bj’s, accounts of misconduct by Bush (contested, but known). Surely SURELY someone somewhere knows what the Purple Hearts were given for, what the injuries were, etc. . .

Or is it unfair (wrong, immoral?) to even wonder about such things? Is it that here, of all places, i am expected to just accept the militaries decision on awarding medals? (If so, obviously i should just accept Bushs honorable discharge, right?)

Please PLEASE no flames, no hostility, just mannerly answers if someone knows the answers. I am just curious. But i would really REALLY like to know, if for no other reason than to decide for myself what i think of Kerrry’s service to our country. . .

Why do you hate the troops so much?

Can you say non-sequitur? I think you can. . . :)

Seriously, thanks for not being overtly hostile. I suffer from being overly curious, and find it **amazing** that this is not on the tip of everyone’s tongue. For that matter, NO ONE seems to have even a vague clue. . .  Perhaps this is just too radical of a thing to even dare to ask or consider?

PS - as you probably imagine, i do have my doubts as to whether the medals were actually earned (just as i have my doubts as to whether Bush earned his honorable discharge, so those who are attack minded might start there!). I imagine if the medals really were legitimate, Kerry would have touted them more in the election. And the fact that 3 earn you a trip home, and he got them in a very short ****4**** months (does anyone know if this is a record?), well now, that does seem just a tiny bit suspicious to people like me. But i do try to keep an open mind. . . Perhaps someone on the list - anyone - can set me straight with the facts?

aSkeptic,

why, pray tell are you using the discussion forum related to an article about George Bush to bring up John Kerry’s war record again?  Is it that Bush’s actions can’t be defended and the only recourse is the tired “well, Kerry only served four months!” trope? Give it a rest already, you guys won (why? I have no idea, Bush is an arrogant, pompous, elitist bully that somehow still manages to invoke the image of the victimized majority to serve his purposes)

let John Kerry go...and instead spend some time looking at the guy you supported, his actions are reprehensible, no matter what side of the fence you sit on, even for those that love freedom and justice :)

Don’t either of you wonder why you have absolutely no idea on the answer to this rather simple question? No curiousity at all, even now when it does not matter a whit?

Not that it matters, but i am NO Bush supporter.

You do ask a very reasonable question: “why, pray tell are you using the discussion forum related to an article about George Bush to bring up John Kerry’s war record again?”.

The answer is that the sentence below - referring to Kerrys “heroism” - caught my eye and made me wonder once again:

“As in other George Bush campaigns—by both father and son—there was the usual litany of dirty tricks and front-group smear operations, this time including a well-coordinated assault on John Kerry’s Vietnam War heroism.”

But i accept that this is - apparently - a question that has no answer. Even after a grueling campaign that questioned the military records of both candidates. Strange.

I know liberal but proud is gonna jump on this one but go ahead and jump. I am so tired of hearing the whining stupidity of the left. YOU lost the election- get over it.
Your headline on this states the “press” has given Bush a free pass....really
How about Maureen Dowd, Helen Thomas. NY times. Boston globe, LA Times, CNN MSNBC, C-BS.ad nauseum. All these leftover lefties ahve done is bitch- bitch - bitch about Bush and it really shows the left’s true colors- black and blue from being trashed by the truth and yellow from running from the truth.
I am so glad Bush won, even tho you “progressives” will never get over it. We put up with Clinton and company for 8 long years now .
well go ahead lib but proud- commence whining.

reddog-"We [proud, God fearing, conservative Americans] put up with Clinton for 8 long years”???

Yes, and we on the left had to put up with clinton for 8 years, had to deal with a quadrupling in Marijuana arrests, an enormous increace in the prison system, numerous politically motivated ‘Wars’ on tiny countries (while ignoring, and even promoting poverty and preventible death elsewhere, see IRAQ, SANCTIONS and CUBA, SANCTIONS, just to name a two)...all very Un liberal things.

My point is Clinton was no liberal, and he was no conservative, he was just another power hungry shumck with no priciples, just like our current regime. We need something new and while that might not come from the democratic party, I feel strongly that it won’t come from the republicans either.

Hey reddog.... don’t worry, the time of “bitching” is coming to a close.  It’s evident that half of this country is brainwashed and hypocritical, so we are no longer trying to convert or convince.  Funny you mention the truth—you have no idea the amount of truth we’ve had to deal with for the past four years, cause you’ve been so damn blind and accepting of what these elite war mongers have been feeding you.  Keep your eyes open.  We’re done bitching. bitch.

I agree with you liberalista- i am NO fan of the war (on some) drugs or the growth of prisons. I was saying that those in the media basically gave Clinton a free ride compared to Bush.
civil war- who ya calling bitch ya bitch. So who do you blindly follow and get your info from? My eyes are always open- ya never know what might be lurking in the shadows do ya? Hypocrisy is in the eyes of the beholder. I don’t accept the war mongers just like I don’t believe what Michael Moore says either. the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Just remember the phrase “civil rights or civil war” goes both ways...bitch.

Your articles comments concerning the questions raised about Senator Kerry’s war record are utter nonsense. It is simply not credible to suggest that the Swift Boat Veterans HAD to be coordinated by the Bush White House or, anyone else. As a Vietnam veteran myself, I have long held the Senator in contempt. The election demographics give clear indication as to the unpopularity of Senator Kerry within the veteran community.
The Senator’s recent “meet the Press” interview demonstrates how little the Senator has learned from his loss. He continues to avoid release of his ENTIRE military file. He continues to cling to his completely discredited “Cambodian Fantasy” despite the fact that not a single member of his so-called, Band of Brothers, will support his story.
The Senator has been lying about his Vietnam experience for decades. He has told so many absurd stories to so many people, he cannot possibly admit to the truth. I cannot help but believe that there isn’t a single, serious military authority who would accept Kerry’s Cambodian story to be anything other than pure, unmitigated fiction.
Commander in Chief? You can’t be serious!!

Dear aSkeptic and reddog,

While the records of military service for George W. Bush and John F. Kerry are not pertinent to this discussion, I want to help you. The questions you raise about Kerry’s honor and service are tired and you are feigning ignorance of the truth. For other visitors, I, a drafted Vietnam Veteran with no medals, will attempt to enlighten those interested in the truth:

John Kerry enlisted in the Navy in February 1966, months before he graduated from Yale. In December 1967 Ensign Kerry was assigned to the frigate U.S.S. Gridley; after five months of service in the Pacific, with a brief stop in Vietnam itself, he returned to the United States and underwent training to command a Swift boat, a small craft deployed in Vietnam’s rivers. In June 1968 Kerry was promoted to lieutenant (junior grade), and by the end of that year he was back in Vietnam, where he commanded, over time, two Swift boats.

George Bush got into the Texas Air National Guard ahead of a waiting list of hundreds of other more highly qualified young men. Well, good for him. He signed a Statement of Understanding (5/27/68): “Satisfactory participation during my membership in the Air National Guard of the United States will be attendance and satisfactory performance of assigned duties at 48 scheduled inactive duty training periods and 15 days’ field training (active duty for training) annually, unless excused therefrom by proper authority. It also includes successful completion of on-the-job upgrade training.

Kerry first met intense combat on December 2, 1968, a hot chunk of shrapnel flew into his arm. The wound didn’t cause Kerry to miss any duty, but it did qualify him for his first Purple Heart.

George Bush: Lt. Col. Killian Memorandum for Record, 8/1/72: “...suspended from flight status due to failure to perform to USAF/TexANG standards and failure to meet annual physical examination (Flight) as ordered… Officer has made no attempt to meet his training certification or flight physical.”

Shrapnel again hit Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry, this time in his left thigh, on February 20, 1969. A grenade hit his boat, causing shrapnel to bore into Kerry’s leg and earning him another Purple Heart.

George Bush: Annual Officer Effectiveness Report part 2..."Not Observed at this unit during the period of this report.” (5/2/73)

His last Purple Heart came from injuries sustained on March 13, 1969. A mine exploded under Kerry’s boat and wounded him in the right arm. Despite the injury, Kerry rescued a Green Beret and assisted other damaged boats while braving sniper fire from the riverbanks. This incident earned Kerry a Bronze Star with Combat V for “calmness, professionalism, and great personal courage under fire.” This final injury was the most severe and gave Kerry pain for years.

George Bush: Memo from Killian, recipient not noted, 6/24/73 (see p. 6): “I got a call from your office today concerning the evaluation of 1st Lt. Bush...Neither Lt. Col Harris or I feel we can rate 1st Lt. Bush since he was not training with 111th F.I.S. since April 1972...”

Soon after, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry requested reassignment. After four years of service, Kerry was deeply disillusioned with the Vietnam War and questioned why the U.S. government was sending young men to die “for a mistake.”

George Bush: USAF requests more information on Officer Effectiveness Report; “This Officer should have been reassigned in May 1972 since he is no longer training in his AFSC or with his unit of assignment.” (6/29/73) Killian Memo to File, 8/18/73: “Harris gave me a message from Grp today regarding Bush’s OETR and Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it. Bush wasn’t here during rating period and I don’t have any feedback from 187th in Alabama. I will not rate. Austin is not happy today either. (11/12/73) Major Martin replies; “Not rated for the period 1 May 72 through 30 Apr 73. Report not available for administrative reasons.”

John Kerry was soon reassigned to stateside duty. After Kerry’s service in the Navy, he became a spokesperson for Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

George Bush: Bush request for discharge from Texas Air National Guard and Transfer to inactive reserves - Bush letter (9/5/73). Request Discharge recommended for approval by Col. Killian (9/6/73). Texas Air National Guard OK for transfer to inactive reserves (10/16/73).

John Kerry served in the Navy from 1966 to 1970 and was in Vietnam from November 1968 to April 1969.

George Bush evaded duty and failed to honor his contractual commitments to the USAF.

Thanks for that Pleiku.  Isn’t it wonderful when all you need is facts.  aSkeptic, Reddog, Dick (you really should know better)-You are all delusional, pathetic individuals.  Seek help.  Really.

Yeah, Pleiku, well done.  Personally I think the fact Kerry VOLUNTEERED to serve in a combat zone is all anyone really needs to know about that time in his life.  The medals are a bonus, but the fundamental thing that distinguishes him from Bush is that he was there at all.

Bush is a coward, and now a murderer too.  So all those who voted for him in this election are accessories to murder.  Unfortunately neocons, like Nazis, know no shame.  Unlike Nazis however, it looks like the neocons are going to get away without being punished.

You had better look out Matilda those big bad neocons might be outside right now plotting your demise!!
What a total nutjob you are!! comparing Bush to Nazis- who the hell are you Michael friggin Moore’s mother or something.
It’s wacked out sore looser liberals or progressives or whatever you call yourselves now that are so delusional with rage over being booted out of power and out of favor you just can’t stand it. You are so out of touch with reality that you cannot see that you so called women’s right to abortion and all the babies it has killed is equivalent to the holocaust and yet you equate Bush with nazis!! It is you who are the nazis- you ding a ling leftos matilda who are so so befuddled and loopy. I cannot believe you actually spout this stuff- no wonder Kerry lost with supporters like you....

Opps!, Kerry won.  Pay attention.

For your edification.  http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/

Pleiku - thank you for enlightening me on Kerrys record. (but you could have skipped the foolishness about “feigning ignorance").

and for your edification why do you not go to
www.democratsaresoreloosers.com or
www.liberalwhining.com
Bush won (thank God) and ya’all liberals lost Matilda when are you gonna take off your tin foil hats and get over it. These conspiracy theories and whining are just makeing you more loathsome ( if that is possible) to the American people.
KERRY LOST Matilda -I’ll say it again. Boy you are dense.The right man won. you are a waste of time matilda. you are a liberal brick wall. when are you gonna accept that america rejects liberalism?? Sore loser.

If you’re so sure of yourself, why are you still having conniption fits?
Does someone pay you to do this?

I have no conniption fits- I fight the looney left (yourself included Matilda) just out of the goodness of my heart and my ideas of what is right and wrong and you are wrong.
nobody pays me Matilda I do this enlightening of the looney left just for fun.
any more questions??

reddog: I’d be interested in hearing your opinions if you didn’t resort to name calling to get your point across.  For everyone’s sake, please behave.  You’ll notice that people who actually care about the truth take the time to cite sources and provide factual information from both sides of the argument.  I really have to wonder if Matilda is on to something.  You really do sound like you’re getting paid to do this.  Stop hurting America.  Thanks.

Is Semour Hersh going to be charged with espionage for reporting on military operations in Iran?Did the Brooks Brothers riot actually happen as reported in this article?If the leaders of Uzbekistan repress their own people as bad or worse than Saddam did,what does say about our policies?If its true that the Islamic militants goals are not to destroy us, but to drive us out of their homelands,should we leave?.....Any thoughts,anybody?

It’s interesting you refer to me a"name calling” and say matilda is on to something- yeah typical liberal hypocrisy badmouth the conservative while giving the loony liberal a free ride. Don’t chastise me Devin you behave and while you are at it muzzle matilda and I’ll discuss. Yeah Matilda is on to something- mental illness. Stop hurting America?? after all the left has done to drive this country into being a third world socialist rainbow gay country?? yeah right- I am the one hurting America.
I wish I was getting paid for this but no I do it just because I enjoy listening to the socialist delusions of folks like matilda.
You are not really interested on this site about both sides. this is only a stroke fest for liberals to massage each other’s bruised egos and re-enforce your looney liberal views.

I keep wondering if the British refered to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as Insurgents.

OK WTT I’ll try to make a point before I get attacked again.

No we should not leave. The islamic radicals attacked us on our soil- we took the fight to them. i find it interesting that it has been said that there was no connection between hussien an al queda but now we are fighting them in Iraq. I think it is good to take the fight to them . While they are busy over there they cannot direct any attacks again on our soil.
I think it funny that you on the left( and no this is NOT an attack) do not notice that you say we are hated because of our policies in their country but are viewed as the great satan because of social issues in this country. i don’t understand the left’s defending radical islam and not wanting to fight them. Boy if you think Bush is a radical conservative you have not really heard of their ideas on women’s lib. capital punishment and social justice. I still remember that guy shhoting that woman in the back of the head on that soccer field in Afganistan for being “unfaithful” to her husband. How can you defend this?

No I don’t think they thought of them as insurgents. I believe they thought of them as illiterate bible thumping gun toting hicks who dared not recognize the british elite as their supreme rulers.

don’t fret people 4 more years of bush will put the democrates back on top. He will go down in flames. He will put us so far in debt, even the republicans won’t care if sponge bob is gay.

Hi truth, but, of course our founding fathers were insurgents.  They threw off the power elite. 
And reddog, your life must be pretty hollow if you have to resort to this for fun.  It’s no wonder with an attitude like “muzzle matilda”.
Anyway, I’ve got better things to do.
Adios.

is not that what you all said before this (2004) election?? 4 more years of Bush is just the start of an American rennisance of freedom from the dark days of liberal rule. America will figure out that the liberal diversity scam being pushed by sponge bob is just a recruiting tool for NAMBLA. And you on the left will loose....Again.

reddog: I have a known flaw-- I care too much.  As such, I think it’s important to hear both sides in a factual fashion.  You have not added anything worthwhile to the discussion yet.  I’m sure you will misconstrue this as a personal attack to hold on to your “victimized conservative” label, but it’s really nothing more than friendly advice.  If you want to post here, bring something to the table other than insults and catch phrases.  In any event, I’d curb the use of “looney liberal”.

bye matilda- off to free some poor folks oppressed by those bad conservatives no doubt. Adios pedejo grande! tu es muy culo.

yeah now that matilda is riding off into the sunset i would love to discuss. i just want to know why you did not condemn her attacks on me?

“Hi truth, but, of course our founding fathers were insurgents.  They threw off the power elite.”

Maybe so. Did any of our founding fathers kidnap and behead fellow citizens (colonists)? Strap on explosive belts to the mentally incompetent for suicide/murder missions? Blow up buildings to keep other people from voting? The list goes on and on. . .

While the US is far from perfect, it behooves us to remember the very large differences between us and these “insurgents”. . .

Oh, so NOW the voice of reason comes out?  There was no attack.  She compared the Bush regime to Nazi Germany and you went haywire.  Then she supplied a URL and you got all up-in-arms over it.  You really have worn out your welcome in this thread.  Any kind of civil discussion at this point is irrelevant, because no one wants to read this far after listening to your ranting and raving for over 2 hours.

Oh comparing Bush to Hitler is no attack??? I guess to you on the looney left it is ok to make silly accusations and any rebutting of that is ranting and raving. Thank you Devin for being the safeguard of liberal sensiblities. Worn out my welcome - you never gave me any welcome here- only attack after attack. You here are all in such lockstep mentally and verbally you cannot even discern between what you say you believe and what you do....

It’s not a personal attack on you, and you should know better.  Your “rebuttal” was filled with insults and your wildly popular catch phrase (sarcastameter: 10) “looney left”.  Bad dog!

Yet again playing the role of victimized conservative.  Give it a rest, already.  “You never gave me any welcome...” *sound of crying baby*

OK you are right and to use Looney liberal is not fair to people like you Devin who have some sense of decency to you. I do take the Nazi thing personal tho- I voted for Bush and am proud of it. i am not a nazi by any stretch of the word and my family back in those days gave their lives fighting the real Nazis so I do not take being equated to nazis very kindly. i do apologize for painting with a broad brush all liberals as we are all despite our differences American. I would like to see the likes of matilda told to tone it down also so we all be a little more civil.

No sniveling on either side then ok?

I knew you had it in you reddog!  I don’t doubt you’re a very loyal person.  Afer all, your name is red’dog’.  I respect that quality in a human being.  What I do know for sure is that these discussions would be a lot better if we didn’t cut right to the partisan insults.  If we want that kind of entertainment, we can turn on the news (nevermind the channel).  If you find yourself getting really upset to the point where you need to insult someone… Hint: It’s a trap.  I have class, have a good one.

methinks reddog used to call himself redstate...what happened redstate? everyone get tired of your baiting so you had to change your identity?

and one note about one of the numerous messages you’ve left here...Radical Islam has a terrible record when it comes to women’s rights, you are absolutely correct. What irritates the hell out of us “looney liberals, or lefties, or whatever you name you want to deride us with) is that the birthplace of the strictist muslim sect (Wahhabi) is Saudi Arabia, our biggest ally and investor from the area.  If you are going to condemn radical islam then don’t make excuses or gloss over the fact that The Bushes favourite buddies in the Middle East is the House of Saud, who actively spread Wahhabism across the region (and that’s not looney conspiracy talk, that’s documented fact)

I agree that calling Bush a Nazi is unproductive, although his grandfather Prescott Bush was undeniably close to many Nazi businessmen and benefitted significantly from his relationship with those evil men.  I prefer to stick to the facts and that is why I call Dubya what he is - a criminal.

The compliant press in this country has done such an incredibly poor job of communicating this man’s past to the American people, that most people don’t even know that Bush has the longest criminal record of any president in history.  Dubya lived outside the law for about the first 40 years of his life, getting arrested at least five times that we know of, and possibly more times that have subsequently been suppressed, including an alleged arrest for cocaine possession in Houston in 1972.  On top of that, at least one DWI in Maine and probably another in Texas, neatly concealed and expunged by one Alberto Gonzales, the putative Attorney General of the United States. 

Bush also impregnated a 15 year old girl in Texas when he was 25 (that, by the way, is known as statutory rape in most places) and paid her to abort the baby.  He never held a real job in his life, drifting from one appointed position he received based on his name, to setting up and bankrupting a handful of companies that he created using the trust fund money that Grandpa Prescott extorted from Nazi businessmen.  The stench of blood and corruption is on every nickel that falls out of the Bush family’s pockets.  Since leaving office, his shameless old pervert has been making his dime by shilling for bloodthirsty right-wing dictators like Mobutu Sese Seko and crackpot pseudo-Messiahs like Sun Myung Moon.  Of course, the press never covered George H.W. Bush’s decade-long extramartial affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald, but they even knew the length and curvature of Bill Clinton’s male member, thanks to Kenny “Liverlips” Starr.

With this sort of reckless and criminal background, why would anyone be surprised that this pompous, self-righteous criminal, George W. Bush, thumbs his nose at international law, violating the UN Charter by preemptively invading Iraq, a country that had no capacity whatsoever to harm the United States? 

So, lets stop calling Dubya a Nazi and focus on he and his family’s criminality and work non-stop to put the whole family behind bars at the federal penitentiary in Fort Leavenworth, where they belong.

Red Dog, Nazi!  The biggest turn out for voting in German history was the election of the Nazi party.  I don’t think that most of the voters that voted for Bush are Nazi’s but bush is a Nazi, and so are you.  Nazi!  I’m a loopy liberal and your a Nazi!

Ok no more rants, vicious diatribes or derrogatory labels. fair enough. My identity is my own.
I hear you on the Bush/saudi connection. I know they had mutual oil interests and have ties to each other. I also know that unfortunately we need their oil and their strategic location . While I too disdain their(the saudi) strict societal attitudes I believe that they have been helpful to us. they were a base for the first gulf war. I never said Bush was perfect and even I find certain associations distateful. But what are we to do? we have to have a foothold/some allies in the region. This country runs on oil and I am all for alternative technologies to limit that need but until we do??
I had once, a long time ago applied to work in Saudi arabia and the more I found out about it the more I said i don’t think so.
We have alliances all over the world with different people who have different values. Look at all the economic trade with China. Yet I find the thought of buying goods made with Chinese slave labor repugnant. I don’t know what the answer is about all this.
You are not looney when you talk about this sort of thing because if you are I am looney too!

this conversation got unproductive a long time ago.  I like calling red dog a Nazi! Dubya, a Nazi and a criminal.

yeah sig heil discgolfa- to the fatherland and all that. I bet you even stuck your tounge out at me when you wrote that! WOW.

boy compared to matilda you are a rank ameteur discgolfa. please stop before you hurt my feelings. tee-hee

Teddy Kennedy’s father was associated with the nazis also. he also threw people out on the streets during the depression. Robert Byrd (D-west virginia) was KKK.  teddy K murdered a girl in chappaquiddick mass and got off scott free. So what are you proposing a new prison for politicians or just republicans?  seig heil ya’ll

I am a rank amateur Nazi, I just had to say something stoopid.  First time ever in fact that I wrote a posting on the internet.  Nazi.

Just another priveledged whiteboy(teddy k), your republican?  I thought you were a Nazi?  I’m getting confused!  Remember now, I’m loopy.  Thanks

Liar, hypocrite, thief, coward, murderer, drug abuser, and oldest child of a TRAITOR (GH Bush - see “October Surprise") talks about liberty and freedom. What a joke on the world!  Bush is COMPLETELY EVIL!  Okay, I heard he was nice to his dog, but even Satan has been known to give Cerebrus a scratch behind each of his six ears now and then.

The media have a great deal to answer to!!!  Here’s a way to hold them accountable:

DRAFT THE MEDIA!!
THEY SOLD WAR, LET THEM FIGHT IT!

The American news media are as responsible for the invasion of Iraq as the neocon liars in Washington!

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/draft_the_media_.html

(This includes an application to enlist in the Bush/PNAC war!)

hey right on man Bush IS the devil right? I heard he even kicked his dog once but he missed! Why I bet he even has dungeons under the white house where he does “experiments”.

well you all are in good company here. I just read that no less of a credible source as Fidel Castro himself called George Bush “deranged” . I guess that is the final word coming from a guy who practically wrote the book on human rights and civil liberties.

reddog:

Like George W. Bush has anything to crow about regarding “human rights”.  What a joke.  Ask Jose Padilla about his habeas corpus rights or ask any of the detainees at Gitmo about “cruel and unusual punishment”.

19 suicidal men in hijacked airliners are not sufficient cause for repealing the Bill of Rights.  During the War of 1812, President Madison hid in the woods outside Washington while the British burned the White House.  He didn’t rescind the Constitution.  Get a clue and read some history.

Stephen Kriz

you know these scumbags in Gitmo are enemy combatants and if torturing them saved just one of our boys in Iraq or afganistan then it was worth it. And from what I have read they were not tortured as much as humiliated . Where is your sense of outrage over these scumbags cutting the heads off innocent victims and videotaping it. And you don’t have to get pedantic over your knowledge of history .I really don’t care what happens to these lunatic murderers - maybe it will send a message to anybody else thinking about attacking us .

Unreal, in 50+ posts fewer than a handful address the content of the article or respond to it in any way. The me-liberal, you-conservative head smacking just goes on and on, it’s hardly different from when I was in college during the Reagan years. It’s about time we quit with the factional carping and check the bloody data. Are the statements in Parry’s article able to be substantiated/refuted or not? If threads like these are a microcosm of American political debate, I fear the future. Even if we disagree, for pity’s sake, let’s do it intelligently!

Number of “enemy combatants” at Gitmo that have been proven to have cut off heads of innocent victims (or convicted of anything for that matter)-0

But since they are Middle-Eastern we can just lump them in with Zarqawi and his fucking freaks.  Kind of makes you wonder why we just let some of them go without charging them, doesn’t it.

So you’re an American Reddog.  Hmmm, so is Michael Jackson.  So does that mean that you are a sick child molesting freak?

Your logic is as twisted as your attempt to justify torture.  Torture is fucking torture.  It’s ALWAYS fucking wrong!!

Do we aspire to be Zarqawi???  Fuck that!

The comparison between the Bush administration and Nazism is fair. The only difference is the degree in which the current regime inflicts their will, but they’re working overtime to achieve it now.

Similarities between the Nazism and the Bush regime:

Suppression of dissent, economic cronyism, marginalization of groups not in line with the party’s thinking (Nazis-Jews, Republicans-homosexuals), cultural insensitivity, secrecy and propoganda, invasion of soveriegn countries for idealogical purposes, jingoism, hegemony, hero worship to the point of delusion, refusal to admit fault, hubris, spying on its own citizens for the purposes of “national security”.

Thats enough for now, I’m sure I could think of some others if I really wanted to. You probably thought of a few of your own while reading the list.

A special note for reddog-this is to try and save you the effort of your relentless name-calling-to-the-point-of-psychosis attack displayed thus far. After all, I feel sorry for you because you’ll probably have to grab a dictionary to understand some of the terms above, giving that your own vocabulary, at least the names you called the others, seems highly redundant.

Mabey you can call Fox News and ask them to use some new words so you can repeat them just as mindlessly and visciously as they do on TV.

vi·cious ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vshs)
adj.
Having the nature of vice; evil, immoral, or depraved.
Given to vice, immorality, or depravity.
Spiteful; malicious: vicious gossip.
Disposed to or characterized by violent or destructive behavior.

See how nice non-republicans are? I even provided the definition for you. Please be sure to employ your defensive self-indignation technique since the truth is dangerous and you seem to be so easily swayed by the lies you so carefully pick out.

Please note as well that the comment contained no “whining” whatsoever. I just firmly stomped your nuts into the ground inbetween periods of intense laughter at your commitment to the sheer lunacy and the (hmmmm, I already used “psychosis” what is another word I can use you will understand? I got it! And its a term used to describe Nazis too!) FANATICAL responses you’ve posted here which serve as a permanent and shining example to the idiocy of the reddogs, err, red staters.

In fact the only thing thats been funnier than this is that by now you’ve worked yourself into an unholy fury and have been calculating a response all the way through this post.  And you probably can’t afford the medication to calm your nerves because the Bush administration screwed up Medicare and banned overseas imports so their buddies at Pfizer can get even richer (economic cronyism, remember?). But I’m sure Bush is praying for you right now.....

AND I’M NOT EVEN A LIBERAL!!!!

I DIDN’T VOTE FOR KERRY!!!!

But you are a reactionary, close-minded, pea-brained, offensive monstrosity who wears bullshit for a hat. In short, you are a complete tool for the republican party who voraciously supports their agenda to compensate for a lack of manhood and feelings of inadequacy in other areas. How else can you explain your insatiable drive to defend the administration. Its easier to defend them than it is for you to defend yourself. You probably suffer from a passive aggressive complex as well.

And the most amazing thing is-you have to reply this post. You can’t help it. And even after you do you’ll be thinking about it all night. You succumb to the childish belief that you have to have the last word because that wins the argument. Immature, to be sure, but so are your beliefs and how you present them. Me, when I leave this post I’m gone, self confident and assured. Notice I don’t necessarily insist my political views are correct? I can still discuss them with people, its just a waste of time with you, you moronic, incompetent (and most likely impotent) twit.

im·po·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mp-tnt)
adj.
Lacking physical strength or vigor; weak.
Lacking in power, as to act effectively; helpless:

Incapable of sexual intercourse, often because of an inability to achieve or sustain an erection.

I realize that you red staters pronounce “important” as “impotent”, thats what happens when you underfund education in preference of perpetual war and marry your sister because you’re too afraid to go outside during a code orange terror alert. So once again, the definition was provided for you.

well you sound like a liberal to me. But that’s ok .you to demean me and put me down and I just consider the source.
Having said that I watched the state of the union speech and as far as I am concerned I am proud to have George Bush as my president! Despite what some subversive elements have to say. You are a traitorous, malicious, moronic scumbag. You are not the great wit you think you are just a fool who knows how to type. And a sore loser too.
Thank God for George Bush!

Ya know mr subversive elements the only thing i really want to know- are you matilda’s boyfriend?? OH and why do you degenerates always think in terms of sexual connotations? But I will leave you with two thoughts. I have no problem with passive aggressive complex- my aggrression is not passive at all. and the best for last Chinga tu madre hijo de puta! -look it up slimeball.

And as we descend into the never ending malestrom of nastiness......

Nazi is just a word.  What matters is the way governments act.  People captured by American troops are either enemy soldiers (the phrase ‘unlawful combatant’ is designed, I think, to throw us all a curve), or they are criminals.  If they are prisoners of war then America is bound by the Geneva convention (which it signed) to treat them accordingly.  If not then America can expect it’s own prisoners of war to be humiliated and tortured in future conflicts.  What goes around comes around.  Would you like someone you know to be stripped naked and threatened with dogs?  No? I thought not.

If the people who have been captured by American troops on the other hand are criminals then they should be charged and stand trial, and evidence of their crimes be presented in public. 

You cannot have it both ways.  Well, you can, but that is called kiddnapping.

The comparisons between Bush and Hitler are designed to highlight an irony.  America at the moment proclaims its love of ‘freedom’ while acting in a way very similar to Germany sixty years ago.  The similarities are shockingly mundane.

For instance, did you know that the German’s excuse for invading Poland was one of self defence?  They claimed that Poland was basically being controlled by the jews, and that the jews were planning to attack Germany.  This was a total fantasy of course, but it went as far as the German press calling the jews in Poland ‘warmongers’ who would stop at nothing to bring Germany down.  This is a documented fact, do not take my word for it.

So what really is the difference?  Hitler invaded several countries telling his own population that he was ‘liberating’ them from the jews.  His actions were pre-emptive and his motives were ulterior.  In it’s early days it is obvious that the second world war was simply a matter of loot.  Hitler and the Nazi mafia were simply aquiring assets.  Of course they told their own people whatever they needed to hear in order to justify this criminality.  Sound even vaguely familiar? 

All those delicate conservatives who get easily offended should perhaps switch off at this point. 

Adolf Hitler was a murderer.  Saddam Hussain is a murderer.  Osama Bin Laden is a murderer.  Our ‘President’, George W. Bush, is a murderer.

Saddam invaded two countries, Bush has invaded two countries.  Bin Laden killed three thousand innocent civilians, Bush has killed seventeen thousand innocent civilians.  Two wrongs never make a right.  Or have all the children out there forgotten this simple lesson?

I believe in real freedom.  I also believe in real security.  In this country our ports are still not secure.  More than three years after Sept 11th 2001 we have still not captured Osama Bin Laden.  We have managed to create a whole new generation of terrorists, innocent children now, who in ten or twenty years will remember the violent and unlawful deaths of their love ones in Iraq.  Wouldn’t you?

We torture and humiliate captive individuals at our pleasure, thinking in some delluded way that this is making us safer.  We make plans to invade and intimidate other countries.  We spend insane amounts of money on the military which in reality simply finds its way into the pockets of rich industrialists.  The comparison with Germany in the nineteen thirties is extensive and almost boringly predictable. 

People are people.  Bad people are bad people, good people are good people.  History holds no real surprises. 

And yet there are still people reading this who will say ‘it could never happen here, we’re different, we’re Americans’.  Well it could, and is slowly happening here.  People are people, and the same crazy ideas seem to skip a generation before landing on yet another country that for one reason or another thinks its better than the rest.

Reddog, I’ve had just about enough of you.  Anyone who wants a taste of what reddog is really about should visit the ‘Gay Matrimony’ article. 

On the other hand, don’t bother, here is one of reddog’s posts reprinted in full.

I asked him what was worse, Gavin Newsom allowing Gay marriage in San Francisco, or George W. Bush killing seventeen thousand innocent civilians in Iraq?

This was his reply…

“Hands down Gavin Newsome.. America does not want and will not have gay “marriage” It ain’t gonna happen now or ever so get used to it.
Matilda you are off your medication again! You sleazy little liberals try to indoctrinate our children with your homo filth. You are all a bunch of sickos- Matilda- in the closet- really. I am sorry to tell you that I do not have the mental disorder that causes homosexuality-That means I am NORMAL- heterosexual . God but you are some kinda nutball. That’s it mental degenerates pushing mental degenerates. that’s what you all are.
Hmm let me think you say Matilda- give it up you have not the ability to think if you foster and push this kind of degeneracy on America- please go to France or something and leave America alone with your sheer stupidity…”

The above is, I think, all you need to know about this particular human being.

I actually made it through the name calling to get to the last post.  Some very good input, qualified answers to good questions and links to sources for the most part. 

I too feel the need to vent, but both parties are a part of the problem not the solution.  Robert Kennedy Jr. said just a couple of weeks ago that “95% of the republicans and 75% of the democrats are corrupt” (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-10.htm)

I tend to think that’s much higher, but that’s my own opinion.

The point is, we have very few “public servants” actually serving the public interest.  It’s all corporate and that my friends is FASCISM!  When corporations set laws, that what you get.  Until we end the grand parade of lifeless packaging known as CAREER POLITICIANS from running our lives the better off we’ll be. 

Do you really think Congress gives a crap about Social Security when they don’t have to worry about it...they get $150,000 a year at retirement, the same pay as a member of the House of Representatives gets as a minimum now.  (Not counting the graft handed them by their corporate sponsors)

And speaking of graft...what do you call a $95,000 necklace given to a prominent politicians wife by a country who needs our support??  (Hope it looks good on you Laura Bush!)

Anyway...name calling is childish in the least.  But taking sides either dem or rep is chasing rainbows. 

Next time; Vote ‘em all out!  Don’t Re-Elect ANYONE!!  And make all public office positions a minimum wage job.  Either only the very rich will be in office, (Duh!), or the minimum wage will be $200 an hour. 

Join the BLOG PARTY and VOTE ‘EM ALL OUT!

By the way speaking ill of anyone’s mother REDDOG is a SIN, look it up!  It’s one of those 10 rules your fearless leader keeps forgetting every time he takes the writers name as his guide!  Like “thou shalt not kill.” Notice the perioc...there’s no comma there, it ends without any doubt as to it’s meaning. 

And I think it was his Son who said “as you treat the least of you, you also treat me” so please call us names again, I dare you!

As per this article and it’s reference to a compliant press, has anyone noticed how the mainstream media has changed spin sides since the election? You see the same or similar articles, but a different spin in headlines and sound bites. Before the election the mainstream media seemed, IMHO, to be edging toward Kerry. Today, post election, the intonations are decidedly pro Bush. That’s one reason why in addition to reading the mainstream media, I continue to read the great articles in In These Times. Thank you, editors!

America is a hopeless morass of the ignorant lauding it over the slightly-less-ignorant.  You’re a culturally ignorant, economically rapacious, and ugly society that is despised the world over.  The only thing America produces of any aesthetic worth is the relentless critique of its own toxic society.

The American dream is dead.  European and Canadian societies are on the rise, and developing countries are looking to us for social and political leadership. 

And in 10 years, when your country is bankrupt, your credibility laughable and your “principles” nonexistent, no one will care what you say or how you phrase it.

And Canadians will laugh, and laugh, and remember how you used your economic might to push us around, and rip us off for so many years.

Dudes i rally care about ur commetns but onw thing that want o say is thsat john(system of a down’s drummer) is the best in the wolrs like it or not

Spicoli couldn’t have said it any better.

Were voting machines unevenly distributed?If so,why?I’ve heard this claim made several times,and no one has presented any evidence to refute it.

well I see the pustules on the ass of america are ranting this morning. Too bad Matilda - your gonna get alot more of me. I will attack your homo agenda wherever and whenever I can. you are all enemies of America. Your twisted bush- nazi comparison is typical liberal loony.
You here have gotten me to the point when I need some recreation I put on video of the police beating your commie asses to pulp in one of your commie “protests” .America love it or leave it you freaks.

Who fucking cares

I fucking care that’s who mushmind.. I am still here waltzing matilda---------oh and for all you heathen pigs out there there is no sin in calling anybod’s mother names you biblically ignorant homophiles. The commandment say “honor your father and mother” but I would not expect any of you brain dead shitbags here know that -oooh because the bible is hate speech right boys and girls for tolerance and diversity. now get back to your homosexual and liberal indoctrination- no recess today kids.. today we learn all about baaaad republicans - who are really nazis boys and girls. It is scary you degenerates even have access to kids- but then how else would NAMBLA find fresh meat right........I am
Happy that liberalism and the democrats are a dying party..good night

ya know coming here has been good for me- because whatever sympathies and interest I might have had for the liberal ideas has been killed by the likes of waltzing matilda and some of the rest. You have focused my energies. I will now sign up as a volunteer for the republicans and support Dr. Dobson’s fight to end Gay indoctronation . I will fight you liberals wherever and whenever I can with all my strength and all my heart. you are hateful, vindictive,small minded , ignorant people. all that you rant about the right- that is what you are., remeber pogo saying we have met the enemy( not enema matilda relax) and it is us? weel you are your own worst enemy. I will post no more - for now but be assured I will be watching.........reddog

The majority of Germans who supported Hitler were not Nazis either.  They were merely enthralled with the rhetoric of national pride and the manipulation of their irrational fears of Jews, Gypsies, gays, Communists, Anarchists, Socialists, Liberals, Progressives and other loony lefties.  Any sense of similitude to our present situation is, according to Reddog, just so out of bounds cause he’s not a Nazi.
Well, I agree, Reddog. You’re not a Nazi.  The question of whether you’re a Fascist or a Fascist dupe, is however, on the table.

I hear ya Matilda,the similarities are striking,and scary.And it’s true that most people think it can’t happen here.And thats what makes it possible to happen here.If we aren’t looking for it,we won’t see it.And most people won’t see it,unfortunatly.Or will let themselves be convinced that it’s in their interests to let it happen.Hilter would’nt have been able to do what he did without the support of his people.And his people would’nt have unless they were convinced that it was ‘right’,and ‘justified’.They eventually came to believe that it was ‘right’ and ‘justified’ to kill jews by the millions.They justified the Hollocaust.Either that, or they did’nt know that it was even happening,being lied to by their government and media.They probably did’nt want to believe it either.I know I would’nt.It’s very easy to convince people that want to be convinced.Sound familar?

The point is that we are in big trouble.  Parry is making points that need to be discussed, and yet all we do is argue about Kerry.  Reddog, et al, (always with the exact same points, blasted over and over much like the party faithfuls in the press) get the discussion divereted into liberals having to defend something.  I read these articles often and am struck by the lack of actual discussion.  It always seems to be an attack followed by defensiveness.  I see the devastating effects of the policies offered by Bush and how we are running full steam in becoming a facist state, read feudalism, quickly.  That is the part we need to be talking about.  Instead there is someone who posts these childlike taunts that keep the discussion from happening.  Could we stick with looking at where we are heading because of the policies that enrich a few and devastate the rest of the world.  Parry’s article is well documented, and reveals truth.  It is reported not only by him but by many others as well.  So could we not slip into junior high school bully type of mere rhetoric. 

Concered about the future.

I, for one, use my real name on forums like these.  I am not ashamed of my positions on issues, nor would I be afraid to say face-to-face, what I post on these forums, to someone of a different political leaning.

Reddog and his ilk, however, are apparently afraid of doing so.  Fear and ignorance seem to inform all of his comments.  But that seems to be the standard profile for most George W. Bush supporters. 

This country truly is in deep, deep trouble when people fall so easily for Karl Rove’s groupthink propaganda, and hate people they don’t even know so easily.  In addition, one of the most troubling aspects of these people, who obviously have severely deficient bullsh*t detectors, is how they wrap themselves in the flag and the Bible, when most demonstrate time and time again with both their words and actions that they are neither patriots nor Christians.

Stephen Kriz

Thanks, Devin.  I’m interested in thoughts about the way the Bush administration uses words with universal appeal like “freedom” and attaches them to particular actions and especially what, if anything, is an effective response to this tactic?  (I doubt it’s calling people who accept the Bush definitions names.)

I listened to a man on the bus the other day talking about his “love” for his girlfriend - how hitting her hurt his soul more han it did her body.  For me, hitting has no more place in a definition of love than rounding up individuals on the basis of nationality and religious affiliation and holding them for months deprived of all rights and subjected to torture does to freedom.

Others will define differently.  How to get alternate definitions out?  Reference an article from the Kucinich campaign:  http://www.kucinich-washington.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=22. 

Well, if anyone has comments about how to be effective and respectful on this issue I’m listening.

You know, folks, Reddog is just uno cabron pobrecito, (su ver, cabron?) just like the rest of us, heirs to a world we poorly remember creating, and are individually impotent of re-shaping. 

So, cabron, I want you to remember this the next time you feel you have to piss on somebody, tus futuros esto en tus manos.

I think this discussion would be much better if we completely ignored this reddog / redhorse person. Just like Bush who used, according to this article, “the usual litany of dirty tricks and front-group smear operations” as in the 527s to divert attention from the issues, you are letting this reddog divert your attention and draw you into an angry defense. TOTALLY IGNORE HIS ENTRIES! Bush uses, as this article points out, a “bare-knuckled approach to politics. That’s not the Democrat’s style and we can’t let ourselves be drawn into it. Some might say that ignoring reddog is like the Republicans when they suppressed the vote, but I say if he doesn’t have something constructive to say—and clearly he doesn’t—then ignore him.

God help America

Don’ know why you’all is het up with that reliogisity talk. Sheeit, Karl jes told me to keep repeatin’ “freedom”, “ownership” and “personal accountability” and those ole Demoncrats would ferget all about impeachin’ me and him over that Valerie Plame nonsense.  Sheeit.

Now, I got to get back to playin’ with Laura’s hooters before she goes and passes out from too much Xanax again - plum loco beetch…

I miss reddog.

I would like to say that Geroge Bush stole the election. I have a plan.  We now have proof that mr. bush is a nazi sympathizer. I have a plan. Join with me my liberal friends to hear my plan to free all gay people from the prisons those republican nazi halliburton-coming Theresa, I know ya cannot wipe your own butt when you are drunk. Now back to my plan 0h. Yes Ted keenedy will be put in charge of the ATF and ambassador to the republic of - hold on theresa I am telling my progressive friends here about my great plan. I am a war hero ya hear me I am a war hero - i shot that little Vietnamese child in the back and I deserve a purple heart for it.
Nazi blah blah blah- more taxes blah blah blah.
I am smarter than anyone- I am running for president- only stupid peopel wiil not vote for me right Theresa?? coming honey....blah blah

Thank you.  I voted in my first election as I turned 18 in November.  I will graduate in June (on the 5th).  I have read all these postings by you so called adults, and someone needs to really keep it on the topic at hand.  I see that both parties will never agree with each other and that is a good thing.  I will debate you with the skills I am acquiring but I will not curse you or call you names.  I am as you know the future of this country, and what I see really scares me.  I like to read everything I can get my hands and eyes on whether it be conservitive or liberal.  I hate labels.  I asked my parents about my first vote, and my dad, told me to get busy reading and learning because I had a big responsibility in front of me.  I voted and it was for a guy who did not win.  My parents never asked me who I voted for because they have taught me to have an open mind.  I do not mean to sound naive or stupid but please stop fighting here.  We need to remember we are all American’s first and then rep’s or dem’s or ind second.

has anyone thoughts of where the anthax (that killed innocent people doing their jobs) came from?

What we need to remember is that we are people first.  Blind Nationalism is what is killing the country right now.

we are all people( even me!) I honestly do not think it is blind nationalism that is killing the country all. it is the wide divide between left and right. the culture wars. the constant fighting- bickering- sniping that goes on here is just a microcasm of what is going on all over america- while our real enemies look gleefully on and wait for our imminent demise.
i remeber thinking to myself on sept 11 that maybe in a convoluted way it was a good thing because it might bring us all together. That old differences might be forgotten- that there was no left or right on that day- only Americans watching with tears in their eyes as 3000 of their fellow americans were killed by a cowardly
fanatical enemy.
If today america was attacked again would things change? would we still all fight on this site? I think not at least I hope not.
even with the animosity between me and matilda- I would still carry her out of a burning building if I had to and not think anything of it other than I was helping a fellow American.

Yes, reddog, but would you pull people out of a burning building in Iraq, or would you have to look at their passports first?

chill out Matilda would ya- i tried to be at least civil -do you think you can be civil?

Bless you amber, after 20 years of teaching high school kids I continue to be proud to be associated with young adults like you. Just don’t let the so-called “adults” jade you with their crustiness and loss of mental flexibility, don’t come around to imitating what you don’t respect just because you stack up some birthdays! Investigate for yourself, take the time to get information rather than succumbing to spin doctors (of either the red, blue, or pink persuasion). Keep your BS detector in good repair, maybe you and your peers can succeed where mine has miserably failed. That post uphill from yours that said “the American dream is dead"… It’s crap, don’t believe it for a second! Freedom, unalienable rights, the power of informed citizen action, the determination to live and let live and to leave it in a better state than you found it, they’re all still real, not just weasel words thrown out to trick a mindless public. They might be suspended at the moment because everyone got spooked by 9-11, but they aint dead, not by a long shot. Hang in there young lady, won’t be long before you’ll be a free agent and can do some good out there. High 5.

subversive elements put down on redsh*t was absolutely the funniest thing i’ve ever read. To call it a nut stomp is an understatement! and the truly sad thing about it is the guy was absolutely right-the neo-nazi not only wrote back but twice within a few minutes-and its clear he was shaken and out of his league. he even tried to get in the “last word” as predicted.

totally, and i mean totally played............

played like a passed-out prison bitch on viagra night in Death Row the day after the commisary had a Vaseline sale and all the guards called in sick

mabey thats his fantasy

add a few huge ........... and a couple more jars of Vaseline. then thats his fantasy

reddog, I’m being civil.  It’s a fair question.  Do supporters of George W. Bush only care about American lives?

To every one else.  I do not consider myself the opposite of people like reddog.  I hound him constantly because he seems to me to be a pure representation of the nonsense enveloping our country at this time.  I do not in any way hope to convert him or any true conservative.  By challenging his viewpoint I hope to gradually expose the vacuous nature of his beliefs.

I am in the broadest sense a liberal, but think it is more accurate to consider me a progressive.  Unfortunately the word liberal has now come to mean specifically the Democratic Party, which although it has some good qualities, does not represent the whole of what it means to be a progressive.

Amber, you are very young but I hope you never mistake education, or experience, for intelligence.  You have everything you need to make good choices, as long as you can look beyond the circus sideshow that is party politics to the broader issues involved.

Here is basically what I stand for, and I would love to hear if anyone else out there shares these values.

I believe in equality, co-operation, empathy and honesty. 

I think the only legitimate hierarchy is a democratically elected one, all others are arbitrary.  I do not believe anyone is born with ‘natural’ authority over anyone else. 

I believe we have a responsibility to ourselves, as well as others, and that there is no conflict of interest inherent in helping others.

I believe that the concept;

“FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITIES TO EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR NEEDS”

is not only workable but is indeed how ordinary people have been living for thousands and thousands of years, sharing resources and helping each other.

I am against the pre-meditated killing of other human beings in any context except self-defense.  Even in self-defense killing should be an absolute last resort.

I do not believe that an unborn fetus up to the age of three months is a conscious human entity.  I could be wrong about this, but it’s just my best guess at this time. 

I believe that there should be rules, and that people should play by the rules.  However the rules should never favor one group over another, except perhaps where a group is in some way seriously disadvantaged. 

I think, like I have said previously, that life is made up of shades of grey rather than absolutes.  Though some shades of grey are occasionally so close to black and white that they for all practical purposes should be considered so.

I believe that win/win solutions to problems and conflicts are almost always possible and should be actively pursued. 

I believe that broadly speaking there are two ways to become wealthy, at other people’s expense, or where everyone still gets a good deal. 

I believe in wealth, but not excess.

I believe that the line between wealth and excess is a shade of grey, but that all those who share the above values do not have any difficulty seeing were that line is.

I believe in freedom of speech, and that exposure to reality harms nobody.  I am against all forms of censorship. 

I believe we all make mistakes and that we all have prejudices.  On the other hand I think we have a duty to be the best that we can be, for ourselves, our community, our children, and the world at large.

I think bigotry, oppression, dishonesty, and unprovoked aggression should never be tolerated.

I believe in happiness, my own and that of other people, except where someone’s happiness is derived from hurting others.

I believe in goodness.

Which party balanced the budget in the last 10 years, reddog?

Who was against nation building...even though a DEMOCRATIC President one of the greatest feats of nation building in the last 30 years? With minimal U.S. losses and a REAL democratic election?

Which Party has stood in the way of healthcare reform by promoting the special interests and frightening the American People with a LOSS of coverage?

Which Party is now talking about reforming a social program they hate, with talk of benefit REDUCTIONS and RISING costs?

Abuse me. It’s all you know. Like all you wingnuts, you don’t like FACTS.

yeah rock on blue dog- what is subversive elements your cellmate or alter-ego. intersting you go into such detail about things....

Matilda just 2 points for now
the from each according to his abilities thing- well is that not from the communist manifest by Marx?
you say you believe in no censorship but I will just bet you are all in favor of political correctness tho right? i am of course against murder but strongly defend the right of self defense also.
on bigotry I just say that on premise it is wrong but where do you draw the line? I know you defend the homosexual lifestyle and that is your right but what about the majority of folks in this country who do not approve of homosexuality - is the majority of the country bigoted?? where do we draw the line Matilda? I think that there are some shades of grey but I have a strong concept of right and wrong.
Anyway thank you for your civility Matilda I would like to discuss further on issues.
whew- Ok Lib & proud Well Clinton did it but only after 1994 when the republicans took him kicking and screaming to do it. Clinton had the benefit of the tech boom during his reign in office. Health care plans pushed by Hillary were rightfully stopped . Her Idea was no good. If you want to see what government service like is look no further than your local department of motor vehicles. I am a wingnut L&P;I DO believe healthcare is a RIGHT. but we have to find the right way to administer it..

“Ok Lib & proud Well Clinton did it but only after 1994 when the republicans took him kicking and screaming to do it.”

Funny how they only TALK fiscal responsibility when the President’s a democrat.

“Health care plans pushed by Hillary were rightfully stopped . Her Idea was no good. If you want to see what government service like is look no further than your local department of motor vehicles.”

Her idea was no good? Got a reason why? I’ll tell you why, because it DID address malpractice while providing an ACCEPTABLE, not MINIMAL, acceptable level of care to EVERYONE. It had cost controls...which is why the special interests (AMA) disliked it. The system we have now is ALWAYS being lambasted by the doctors for paperwork, and lambasted by people because of expense. I don’t see doctors going bust (despite allll the whining about malpractice insurance), only Bush digs up these guys. Ever notice...they’re all near retirmement age...ya think they’re lookin’ for one more chance to abuse the system. Social Security and Medicare show that you can have effective social programs and still maintain competition and market wages and costs. I know your gonna say they’re goin bust. There we diverge. Point of fact is that the surplus in SS has been used to offset budget items for decades. The system was adjusted in the ‘90s (gee..by a Democrat) with very little pain to the American public and with no loss of benefits. It can be done again. The problem is this Administration is running an all guns and no butter government. We have a financial crisis, but funny its only caused by social programs. Not excessive waste in privatizing the war.

Dear Reddog,

Must we anathemize Marx on your say so? 

Can we defend the human dignity of gay people without promoting some mythical “lifestyle”? 

Must we who embrace multi-cultural values and respect for the dignity of the least of men/women to the very last man/woman, surrender our belief to the tyranny of the majority? 

If I voluntarily refrain from slanderous speech and encourage others to do the same (PC) does that in any way diminish your right to spew hateful insults?

Do you really believe that spewing hateful insults at one’s political opponents is helpful in engendering understanding?

I was thinking of Matilda’s post and it just reinforces what I think about the left. She believes in the communist manifesto and I believe in the American Constitution. That is the problem with democrats and why the democratic party is a dying party. it has been co-opted by Communists and socialists. From Hillary’s health care which WAS socialised medicine L&P;.
I go to conservative sites and liberals come there and are not treated to the sheer stupidity and rudeness of the likes of blue dog ( more on you later pig)and the obvious comedy of “subversive elements” that I am here.
This is why folks of good mind absolutely reject liberalism and socialism. From the stupid nazi remarks to the other ludicrous statements and lack of courtesy and respect the left has lost it’s mind. Hitler was for national socialism- you on the left have alot more in common with hitler& co than any of us on the right do. With scare tactics and hysteria you peddle your socialist ideas from coast to coast. You suit your news to siut your views. It is pathetic to see how you act when you lose elections and power.You are all worse than a bunch of new age kids who cannot have their way. If you were not all so funny I would say that you are a threat to the american way of life- but hearing from you all - well I just cannot take the threat of a bunch of worn out, burned out delusional hippies.

Now for you blue dog cause I know you;ll read this with subversive intentions. Get this punk if you have ever been in the stir ( you would not last a day) you know that somebody who is 6’2” tall 250 pounds covered with harley tattos (that would be me)is protected by the little in house social club call WAR look it up college boys it’s the folks who hang little snot nosed punks like you on meat hooks in the prison kitchen and shiv you like the pig you are. have a nice day boy.

The nastiest, meanest, craziest, most murderous SOB I met inside was about 5’4” and couldn’t have weighed more than 120lbs. He sure knew how to stick a knife.  He just loved taking out big bully types like you, Reddog.  He liked me though, an anarchist, pacifist, hippy, dope-pusher.  Why, I can’t figure, but nobody but nobody ever fucked with me, Holmes.

well that to some extent luminous is true. it ain’t the size of the bear in the fight - it’s the size of the fight in the bear. I am not a bully but I do have a very strong sense of self preservation holmes. Yeah i knew this little fella too smaller than your friend who was a badass too- kick boxer 5th degree belt , fought pro in thailand and all. where do you get the bully from man- I never bullied anyone ever in my life as a matter of fact I always stuck up for the little guy . I was a professional bouncer in the NY area & rode hard with friends of the red& white- you are savvy- you know who I am talikin about luminous.You also know about WAR and the brotherhood inside eh? My favorite was taking out guys who beat up on their girlfriends. sorry ya got the idea that I was a bully dude- must be from listening to all my “friends” here on this post.I was responding to blue dog and his friend only But that’s OK that was my other “specialty” getting it on with many who sought to take me down. Never happened- but that was long ago friend. Just remember never take a knife to a gunfight amigo. Ever been to left bank books in seattle?

once again Luminous you misconstrue my meaning amigo.
PC should disgust an anarchist such as yourself - I don’t think it’s right to denigrate and use derroagtory names but the PC police attacks anybody that questions anything anyone says and labels them racist, homophobe. What would Kropotkin say?  I am not racist and if you read my posts on the racsim headline here I don’t think you would call me racist.
Communism always allows despots and dictators to take over- North Korea - Mao- Stalin not really civil libertarians agree?
but thank you for your civility and intelligence here .  you are a good voice.

You Neo-fascists cannot make a rational political argument to support your president. That is why almost all of the new Brown Shirts use name-calling, instead of facts and reality.
Bush lied about the WMD. Bush lied about his National Guard service.” Bush lied about Social Security. Bush lied about his ordering the torture. Bush’s administration outed a CIA operative but noone has been tried for this treason. Deception and lies are the Bush way. Clinton lied about a BJ.
Bush is building 14 permanent bases in Iraq. He has no exit strategy because he has no intention of leaving Iraq. Iraq is a Neo-con experiment of corporate corruption and wealth redistribution to the military industrial complex.
Bush is a coward. He acted like a shell-shocked child when he was told about the 9/11 attacks. He loves to dress up like a soldier but when he had the chance to go to war he hid behind Daddy’s money and influence. Anyone who defends Bush’s Sleaze boat liars should be ashamed of themselves. Get over Georgie’s cowardly non-service because that’s what motivated those attacks.
We have gotten over W’s “mandate.” Remember that even if the votes were counted accurately, then close to 50% of voters agreed that Bush was an incompetent boob, or worse, a war criminal and profiteer. And, most recent polls show more than 50% of Americans disapprove of W.
This is still America and we are allowed to dissent. If Bush’s ideas are right, then why don’t you explain why Bush won’t permit dissenters at his appearances. Maybe because his idiotic ideas cannot stand up to argument? Or, because Rove doesn’t want the public to realize that some people have not yet been hypnotised by his propaganda.
FYI, when a foreign army is occupying your country and you fight to remove them you are a patriot. The occupiers call you insurgents. When an administration takes over the White House through a bloodless Supreme Court coup, the people who fight to remove the illegitimate government are patriots. But you can call me an insurgent.
I know this war is wrong and I am appalled by the things this president is doing in my name. While the mainstream media does not report the truth about this war, you can get some unembedded reporting at http://dahrjamailiraq.com/ Let’s hope that President Howdy Doody has finally overreached with Social Security.

wasn’t there a poll back in November or something that said Bush’s approval rating was over 50% OH yeah it was the ELECTION- and he won.
nock it off the the neo- facist- nazi stuff- the left is more facist and neo nazi like than the republicans ever could be. You lefties are the one calling all the juvenile names- like a bunch of spoiled little kids who can’t get their way.
the foreign enemy real American patriots need to fight is the enemy within - the liberal left.the socialist- communist- progressives.
don’t flatter yourself i am sure that Bush does not know your name. He is fighting for folks who care about freedom not the commie vomit from the left.
Be careful about what you wish for because I heard once he fixes socialist security he is coming after “insurgents” in this country. All the treasonous liberals better watch out- after Iraq- Boston- san francisco-
Imagine no liberals......

Yes,

‘from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs’

was written by Karl Marx.  I would joke about being a devil worshipper also by I would probably be taken seriously.

There was a poll a few years ago, I heard about it via several references made by Noam Chomsky, in which a cross section of ordinary Americans were read a list of sentences and asked to pick which ones were from the American constitution.  70% of people said that the above line was written in the American constitution.

Why should this be?  Could it be that most Americans believe that helping the less fortunate is a good thing, an American thing. 

All that the above sentence proposes is that we should all contribute what we can to help the general good of the community. Shocking!

Taxation is one embodiment of the above principle, which is why the conservatives despise it.  They hate any sort of systemised sharing or helping of others.  And that’s all social programs are, that is all that the New Deal was, medicare, public education, etc.

I think communism went way too far, and was basically an over-reaction to very oppressive forces in the late 19th and early 20th century.  I just want to state that for the record, for those in the audience to slow to work it out.

On the other hand I think Marx’s analysis of the effects of unrestrained free market economics was fairly accurate. 

I think we can have a strong economy based on a partially regulated market that would still enable us to help anyone who needs help.  It’s as simple as that.

Go on reddog, call me a ‘communist’, you were calling me a ‘facist’ the other day.  Make up you mind.

By the way these thoughts and ideas are for everyone, not just in reply to reddogs ravings.

Matilda- I don’t think you are a communist or facist at least I hope not. I don’t think you are a bad person, You seem to really care for the “human condition “ and have empathy for people. I think maybe misguided a litle bit- you sure do seem to base a lot of your beliefs on the premises of communism- socialism. Noam Chomsky . I trie to read some of his works and to tell you the truth I could not stomach his blame America first rhetoric. But I am gonna shut up (YAY!!) and let other people as you suggested Matilda comment on your thoughts.

You Neo-fascists cannot make a rational political argument to support your president. That is why almost all of the new Brown Shirts use name-calling, instead of facts and reality.
Bush lied about the WMD. Bush lied about his National Guard service.” Bush lied about Social Security. Bush lied about his ordering the torture. Bush’s administration outed a CIA operative but noone has been tried for this treason. Deceptio