Standard Issues

“In general, humility at the Standard is in short supply.”

I find the above comment coming from In These Times to be one of the funniest comments ever written on this site.

“— more than a dozen bombs exploded in the city, killing 160 people and wounding 570.”

Not that those people who set them off could possibly be blamed — Right?

Kristal Clear:

http://tvnewslies.org/html/kristol_clear.html

““On what issue or issues (if any!) have you changed your mind in the last 10 years—and why?” But for the most part, the Standard-bearers are staying the course.”

whattheheck - i agree! I also smiled as i read the quote above. . . I wonder, is the irony of this article lost on the author?

whattheheck,

Is the comment about “ humility at the Standard is in short supply. “ funny for its own sake or is it funny coming from In These Times because humility is in short supply everywhere? Funny either way I guess. hehe

The people setting off bombs are responsible for the carnage they cause.

Be they Iraqis, Americans, British or others.

Mr. Bush says that he invaded Iraq to make it better (a generalization of the various justifications for the war) and I still see it getting worse.

The one thing that I’d like to say about this article which for me is the point of this article is that plain and simple The Weekly Standard is one of the most widely read news magazines in conservative circles thus its influence is rather high. As progressives and liberals it is important for us too know our enemy and thus it is important for us too read or look at or know the arguments presented in the Standard so we know what the opposition is thinking.
www.votenader.org
www.aclu.org
www.norml.org
www.ssdp.org
www.votecobb.org

Aaron writes “The Standard’s 1997 cover story, ‘Saddam Must Go,’ by Kristol and Robert Kagan, is widely credited with planting the seeds for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.”

Undoubtedly that cover story stepped up the campaign for war against Iraq, but the seed was planted long before 1997. Commentary magazine, edited by John Podhoretz’ father Norman, ran a piece in 1980 advocating a US invasion and occupation of the fields of the Persian Gulf. The neoconservatives have been clamoring for war for a very long time, and they’ve finally gotten what they wanted.

How about a free book, Folks?

A little education never hurt the effort of trying to converge on a more objective version of reality.

http://gangsofamerica.com/read.html

NaderRaider,
re: The Weekly Standard

Rather than regarding their writers as “our enemy” and reading with the attitude that this is, “… what the opposition is thinking.” You might consider theirs is just one more opinion and not accepted as Holy Writ by their readers. You will find they are not all in sync. I read it every week and write my comments regularly — both when I agree and disagree.

Now, more than ever, it is a time for independent, non-partisan thinking.

Tim, Wolf and David,

I was thinking that the word HUMILITY was completely alien to this site.

But, you are right. It is in pretty short supply almost everywhere. Not only do we have such an abundance of people claiming to KNOW a lot, but as a society we seem to expect to KNOW everything.

We all heard, “We spent X amount on intel, we should have known about 9/11.” People ask when the stock market will go up (or down), what the weather will be tomorrow, next week, for the next fifty years! Talk about a lack of humility.

Consider the overwhelming amount of information today. Before we dropped the A-bombs on Japan, Naval Intelligence had broken their code and we were intercepting nearly one million messages per month.  (1945)

Now, sixty years later, we have many millions per day! Email, Voice Mail, U.S. Postal Service, phone calls, in-person contacts… all combined to make it nearly impossible for me to reach people for the last decade in my business. I remember reading the average business person gets over one hundred messages per day at work.

It certainly seems plausible to me that the intelligence gathered prior to our invading Iraq could have caused me to decide to go there had I been responsible for the safety of hundreds of millions of countrymen. The thought of NOT doing anything and suffering another 9/11 is far worse to me. It would be a tough call — just as with the shooting in Britain of the illegal Brazilian — it is a no win situation.

Someone within the administration (who can speak coherently) should have continued a dialog with 1.) The U.S. citizenry, and 2.) The free world at large. (Forget the U.N. — they screwed around for twelve years.)

Instead, the media was allowed to define this as primarily a hunt for WMD.* To add to the problem, democracy for Iraq was made a goal. You don’t need a CIA report to know the long standing hatred between the religious factions there.

The time is long past to go on record as having misjudged the situation, admit the mistakes and get free world cooperation to enforce a ceasefire such as in Bosnia. (When Tito died they went right back to settle old scores.) I suspect both areas will need to be occupied for a long time.

I have always been a fiscal conservative and on some social issues as well, but my religious views took some time to be decided and now I find myself with Winston Churchill who claimed, “Put me down as an optimistic agnostic.”

My optimism no longer extends to politics. I do not see the Republican Party as conservative. (Both parties are pro-reelect-me.) Neither of the Presidents Bush fits my image of conservative (except for W’s religious views). I think Bush is honest, but — simplistic, suggestible, and unable to adapt his thinking to changing circumstances. A person can be wrong and still be honest.
-----------------------------------
*When I served on jury duty last year I stopped to pick up my small Swiss Army knife as I was leaving. I realized when I got home that my money clip which was not taken has two blades in it. I would have denied I had a “weapon” and the guard would have verified I had none.  WMD, such as chemical or biological, can be very small and easily hidden.

whattheheck,

You say “ Instead, the media was allowed to define this as primarily a hunt for WMD.* To add to the problem, democracy for Iraq was made a goal. “

With all due respect to you, when the media reported on the justifications for the war it was not a bunch of fantasies that the media concocted, it was a bunch of fantasies that the war party concocted.

Some countries went along for the ride, and are bailing out now, but most, including several respected allies, did not and voiced their disapproval saying that an invasion was unwarranted and called for continuing weapons inspections. The weapons inspectors were there doing there job and doing it well, i.e no weapons of mass destruction have been found. The weapons inspectors were told to leave when war was imminent. From a media perspective outside the USA some of the international media portrayed it as an unjustified invasion, an action that was not warranted by the situation, that did not have the cooperation of the free world.

You say “ The time is long past to go on record as having misjudged the situation, admit the mistakes and get free world cooperation to enforce a ceasefire such as in Bosnia.”

Yes, admit the mistakes and more importantly : stop making mistakes. An unattainable ideal but worth striving for. The USA doesn’t seem to want to talk about world cooperation, at best they mouth the words and proceed to do what they want regardless of world opinion. See above.

.. and when I say war party please understand that I do not mean Republican or Democrat. Warmonger would have done just as well.

Rabbit is an Gnostic so all religions are part of the game, none more or less important than any other except by virtue of the weight of numbers of it’s adherants, all just different poems about the same great event.

All written and interpreted by Gnostics at some time in their history, for Gnostics never follow, can only lead. In the same way all religions fail at their outset, for none but another Gnostic can trully follow another Gnostic’s path.

As an Aussie Rabbit feels entitled to say without any further ado that Rupert Murdoch is a C*NT and not in a nice way. Anything to do with Rupert Murdoch is crap and he is an Illuminati shoeshine boy.

For the last time, WTH, and others, it has been and is still being questioned on this very site that 911 was in any way a justification for a WOT.  Kindly have the intellectual honesty to refrain from using that example as if it is an accepted fact. The official 911 story is totally debunked and not with speculation but with FACTS. The facts have led to inevitable speculation, which is just that, but the official story gets NO credence around here. If you wish to use 911 as an excuse for a phonmy war on Terror, then you will have to prove why this should be. Against challenges which you have so far failed to address.

Those who are criticising ITT and praising in any way the Murdoch Rag, take note who you are. You are none of you people who have established yoursleves as capable of tracing facts and using these to form opinions. You are just readers of headlines and generic reports. You pretend that FACTS are things which are established once they are reported in the MSM. The biggest problem is you think that ALL facts are presented in the MSM, which they are not.  That doesn’t mean FACTS are not available via the MSM, just that one must select the correct source for Facts, which is what OUR sites do for us.  For example Rense, Information Clearing House, Prison Planet etc.

These are honest sites linking to appropriate sources for stories and following impoprtant stories’ developments. Comment is separate and “labelled”. All your rubbish rags feed the sheeple ditto and the sheeple lap it up. “Ditto is yummy” say the sheeple. “yes Ditto is all there is” “who would ever want anything but ditto to eat?”

WTH you are never going to be taken seriously while you say things like

“I think Bush is honest, but — simplistic, suggestible, and unable to adapt his thinking to changing circumstances”

Seriously WTH

we cannot keep this up. Must Rabbit actually prove to you that Bush is an inveterate liar? Will you take notice if I give you the proof? Nobody who Rabbit respects can say that Bush is not a Liar, with a straight face. 

It will not be hard, the proof is there is his own words and the Downing Street Memo’s are but a small part of the campaign. Rabbit knows of whole sites very well documented which are devoted to Bush’s lies.

Put the word Failure into Google and see what you get.

Put the word LIES into Google and see what you get. Haven’t tried the LIES but will bet there will be many many entries referring to Bush Lies.

Just say the word.

This is both informative and very well presented. For a good grounding on some of the biggest lies about IRAQ. A good start. One must make a conscious decision about categorising GWB lies for they are of such an enormous quantity and such varied seriousness that a simple listing of some would never begin to do the subject justice.

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/iraq_lies.html

The following is from CNN in 2003. It isn’t as if you didn’t see it coming in good time.

“President George W. Bush has got a very serious problem. Before asking Congress for a joint resolution authorizing the use of U.S. military forces in Iraq, he made a number of unequivocal statements about the reason the United States needed to pursue the most radical actions any nation can undertake—acts of war against another nation.

Now it is clear that many of his statements appear to be false” — IN 2003!

“President Bush’s statements on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction
Readers may not recall exactly what President Bush said about weapons of mass destruction; I certainly didn’t. Thus, I have compiled these statements below. In reviewing them, I saw that he had, indeed, been as explicit and declarative as I had recalled.

Bush’s statements, in chronological order, were:

“Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.”

United Nations address, September 12, 2002

“Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons.”

“We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons—the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.”

Radio address, October 5, 2002

“The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.”

“We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas.”

“We’ve also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We’re concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States.”

“The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his “nuclear mujahideen”—his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.”

Cincinnati, Ohio speech, October 7, 2002

“Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.”

State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003

“Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”

Address to the nation, March 17, 2003”

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/
.............................................................

That is from 2003 ! Now how is it looking?

WTH is there not a twinge of embarrassment for you upon reading the above?

Rabbit can find some of his own postings about the Net from about the same time and you might find Rabbit’s predictions very accurate. Not that it was hard, there were plenty of us then saying it was all lies, we knew you see, and we know even better now.

Furthermore, those of us who called the lies last time and were proven right in every respect, to thye WMD’s the aftermath and the “AFTERMATH”.  Those of us who did so last time are tellling you that it is happening again. Exactly the same process of lies and exagerations and false propaganda in such Rags as any Murdoch controlled media for a start, is being perpetrated upon you and the world at large thanks to your acceptance of it. This time there are many more of us who are awake up to the lies. This time the lies are likely to have substantially more significant consequences. Don’t believe Rabbit. Just keep on believeing the lies and stand right where you are. We’ll just be getting out of the way thankyou, Rabbit wants nothing to do with your hubristic visions of world dominance. The world is quite happy to co-exist and unify as a people without being forced to kneel to an American GI with a Gun. The Iranians are now being lied about and with far less justification than ever Saddam Hussein earned. This time you’ll be attacking a country with a more healthy democracy than your own, and they are much stronger militarily than Iraq. They admit to having 40, 000 trained suicide bombers, (Whatever that is Press the red button, seems easy enough to remember) ready and willing to die if they are ordered.

The Iranians are honestly not the sort of hornets nest you want to stir up. Nice people, very gracious hosts and honest, but don’t piss them off.  You think they hate USA? They do, that is no wonder, again the history is there to show why, it has been offerred before but none of you “Blurters” want to take up the issue. You Blurt out things about other nations, that fall so far short of the mark it is jolly , but sadly explains how a potentially good people could allow so much evil to happen in their name.

Rabbit has made the point before that the reason for the unpopularity of the USA is actually a subject of debate in the USA. Some have one theory others have another. This is surreal. Those who hate the USA have told you why, but your media has never picked it up. Why? 

Doesn’t it occur to anybody that the fact that America is not sure why so much of the world is turning against her is a stinging indigtment of a supposedly open media which has failed to convey even this simple truth to you?

BTW because the Iranians have such a military including suicide bombers is not cause to consider them a threat. They do not threaten you or anybody who does not threaten them. Sorry if that does not seem fair, but you are not the only country allowed to defend itself, even if you are the only country who seems to be allowed to attack others with apparent impugnity. You will claim they sponsor terrorism, well you bring your proof and Rabbit will bring the proof of all the terrorism supported by USA and Israelis.

Shit, they just arrested four Mossad agents trying to blow up the Subway in NYC or something, ask and I’ll post link.

We’ll see which government is the biggest supporter of terrorism. It probably is not the USA, out of this three, but it certainly isn’t Iran.

David,

When I said, “...the media was allowed to define this as primarily a hunt for WMD”. 

What I meant was even though initially Bush listed a number of reasons — WMD (including, Saddam’s nuclear ambitions, chemical & biological labs) freeing the Iranian people from a vicious dictator, going after terrorist training camps/supporters, enforcing UN Resolution 1441, whatever. He also predicted this would only be a start in the War on Terror. The fantasy, as I see it, is in thinking this diverse, strongly religious oriented group can be “democratized” or for that matter nationalized.

There has been very little attempt at maintaining communication from the administration. News conferences are mostly defense against the media’s leading questions. (Having worked in advertising for forty plus years I can assure you that people have short memories.) When someone believes in a idea he must continually remind, refine, and promote it or someone else’s competing ideas will override it.
------------------------------
“The weapons inspectors were there doing there job and doing it well, i.e no weapons of mass destruction have been found.”
------------------------------
I totally disagree with this. (My jury duty search found nothing also — but it was there.)

We had twelve years of hide and seek. With this kind Keystone Cops operation, Saddam could have gone on forever. Several times Sec. of State Albright put surprise searches on hold for political reasons and the “secret” raid was blown. He could have moved a mountain across one of his borders in this game, totally undetected.
------------------------------
“The USA doesn’t seem to want to talk about world cooperation, at best they mouth the words...”
------------------------------
I think Bush has no diplomatic skills. When France, Russia, and Germany were all found to have economic deals going on with Saddam, he crossed them off — big mistake. In the past the U.S. had done plenty of the same. At the time I thought the thing to do was to try harder convince them to come on board.

As it looks now, it would have been fruitless, since the current continental mood appears to be continuing attempts at appeasement. Many of them already have large Muslim populations with the attendant problems and think they can avoid confrontation.

------------------------------
“...and proceed to do what they want regardless of world opinion.”
------------------------------

I would certainly hope that should an immanent threat develop whoever is Commander in Chief would not wait for a world consensus before taking appropriate action.
------------------------------
“… and when I say war party please understand that I do not mean Republican or Democrat. Warmonger would have done just as well.”
------------------------------
Understood, but I am no longer one to “turn the other cheek”.  We were attacked again. There was no adequate response in 1993. I was and am in favor of going after terrorists wherever they are regardless of world opinion. I think we are foolish if we do not. Bush’s lack of concern with our borders being continually violated falls into the foolishness category.

Our overriding political problem is the (two only — realistically) candidates we have to choose from each four years. How can we ever expect to get intelligent, concerned, innovative people to run? If anyone speaks his mind while campaigning, he will suffer sound bite crucifixion. If he has a track record — it will be spun against him. The pay is not an incentive (nor do I think it should be) so it must be someone willing to obfuscate, dodge and sell his soul to one or more special interest groups.

Sorry, I guess my age is showing in this cynical assessment. I have written to politicians for years and my conclusion is that those who really want to do something truly beneficial for the ordinary people don’t last long due to the entrenched professionals and those behind them.

Rabbit,

You stated, “These are honest sites linking to appropriate sources for stories and following important stories’ developments. Comment is separate and “labeled”.”

I guess labeling must surely verify its the TRUTH.
------------------------

Alan Greenspan will be leaving office as Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board early next year. Separating comment from fact would be a refreshing and unique approach.

I suggest you submit your resumé.

Rabbit,

When you say, “They (Iranians suicide bombers) do not threaten you or anybody who does not threaten them.” You can’t be serious.

Perhaps you don’t know anyone who lost someone in the WTC or other attacks on 9/11. I doubt that you could face their families and say this to them. I have a good friend of 30 years, who’s insurance firm lost over 200 people at the Trade Center office.  He just happened to be in Minneapolis that day.

Those bastards will kill anyone who happens to be one of those dreaded capitalist business people which they perceive as a threat to their society.

Your Scientific Method:
“Put the word LIES into Google and see what you get. Haven’t tried the LIES but will bet there will be many many entries referring to Bush Lies.”

The following is from CNN in 2003…
“Now it is clear that many of his statements appear to be false.”

This was written by John W. Dean, former Council to the President (NIXON). He is also an ex-con (not neocon). 

You can’t actually believe what you read on the internet — it can come from anywhere.

I recently received a lengthy financial advisory which was billed as and interview between a well known economist and an MSNBC talking head. Somebody had taken an online account of a genuine interview and interspersed an outrageous set of dire global predictions including a world wide depression greater than the 1929 biggie.

It is OK to carry on interesting discussions and share opinions, but I quite frankly don’t care if anyone is convinced to change his or her mind by what I express here.

Along that same line, whether I believe Bush is honest or not matters not at all. We are in Iraq and up to our ears in promises. To simply pull out before they can maintain some semblence of government would be sentencing anyone who cooperated with the coalition forces to death.

We are obligated to stay until that is accomplished. Whatever form of government they decide upon should be decided by Iranians.

WTH working my way down your posts and this was to David, but Rabbit will answer.

It really should not be relevant at this point what you agree with about the weapons of Mass destruction.  There were inspectors, including US agents and they found no WMD’s. They were not allowed to continue because USA attacked. The speed of the fall of Iraq, would have ensured nothing was able to be hidden in time, actually Aussie SAS were behind the lines weeks in advance to ensure things were secured.

The simple fact is that no WMD’s have been found, not even the smallest bit of evidence of there existence. End of story. You cannot continue to argue the point, it is finito.  You are actually using the most farcical argument, and it is being used again by the JUNTA. You are saying that people have to prove they don’t have something. How the hell can anyone proove they don’t have something?

Matey the fact is that you as the accuser are obligated to proove there is something. This you have failed to do and therefore the verdict is not-guilty.  You say you were on Jury Duty, God help the poor bastard you were sitting in judgement of.

WTH you are talking about tweleve years of Hide and Seek.  Now you have got to stop using all these lies of the time as if they were facts.

Prior to the Gulf War the USA had armed and supported IRAQ, that is history.  It has been established that Iraq attacked Kuwait after getting the go ahead from Bush senior. After the Gulf War, there was no further evidence of WMD’s and that meant ten years of fruitless searching. You cannot therefore claim any hide and seek was going on, since there is no evidence whatsoever that WMD’s existed in Iraq afetr this.  You have to stop accusing people and demanding they prove they are not something. That is the most deceitful trick and “NEVER” works in a courtroom.

WTH your ovveriding political problem is not poor candidates at all. It is a nation of people who have become so blind to reality and who allow themselves to be bought off with cheap tricks and hollow lies. You cannot absolve yourself of responsibility whilst you more or less support the travesty that your government has become..  WTH within weeks or months a number of the administraion will be facing charges and the whole shithouse is poised to collapse into a stinking pile of crap. Even the MSM is waking up to what is about to happen. Mate you are whistling in the dark, the dark is the shadow of the collapse of what you believe in yet. It saddens Rabbit to see someone who could wake up in time, but who is instead facing a terrible shock very soon.  You don’t have to take Rabbit’s word for it, read about it.

Rabbit along with others has been arguing with people like you for the last five years and so far, everything Rabbit predicted has come to pass. Everything you have believed in has crumbled or is doing so. It is easy to become frustrated, but that has long since passed. It is encouraging to see how many are finally waking up, our numbers are swelling at an incredible rate. Those who support your points of view, are dwindling in numbers so fast WTH, just look at this and consider the meaning. Do you actually think that I and people like me represent such a crazy view that we can win converts in droves, while your common sense is going unnoticed? It is impossible for most who are committed to an opinion to abandon that opinion, even when it has proven false. Have you not noticed yet that Rabbit has always and will always prove facts if asked? What do I need to prove to you out of my claims which you feel is significant?

“France, Russia, and Germany had economic deals with Saddam” yes WTH so did US companies. The Oil for food business was not what you have been told. Have you never heard of George Galloway? His story is tied closely with the US governments piracy over OIL for Food.

The details have been mentioned elsewhere. The thing which the USA had a problem with was that these countries were giving Saddam EUROs for payment of OIL. There is nothing illegal with that. The USA considers it to be the worst thing in the world, a direct and serious threat to it’s currency. You see OIL has only ever been bought and sold for US dollars, a great situation for the USA who was able to build an enormous economy as a consequence of practically owning all the worlds Gold (by defacto) This was so crucial to the Economy of the USA that it has been considered LAW by the USA. It is not. To try and enforce such a LAW now, which is the real reason America attacked Iraq and why Iran and Venezuala are next. This is not democracy in action, fools. It is not freedom on the march clowns. It is not Morally justifiable, you hypocrites. It is blatant thuggery and Piracy.  This is why the USA has abandoned all Geneva conventions and international law. Does it not ever occur to you that your country is now the “OFFICIAL” worst villain on the world stage.

WTH, the USA no longer belongs to a club of civilized nations. It is not good enough to say we are all the bad guys and you are the only good guys left.  Not even half your own population believes that anymore.  Dude, you are sinking, and your head is barely above the waves, yet you try to tell me you have a fine ship under you.

WTH you talk about appeasement by European countries.  You are in no position as an American to tell us what we are doing or why. Rabbit is married to a Dane and has family as well as friends all over Europe.  The news also tels it like it is, but not of course the American news.  The Europeans are actually trying to appease the USA, by hassling the Iranians a bit. The fact is that Iran has not and is not breaking any rules. They are entitled to develop nuclear power accoriding to the treaties to which they are signatories.  The fact is to any objective observer, that Iran is being deliberately set up and is being remarkably patient.  Don’t quote headlines at me WTH, go and find some Rule that IRAN is breaking, then come back and start TELLING US HOW BLACK THE KETTLE IS or is not.

Remeber won’t yoy that ISRAEL, your real masters, broke the rules big time.

If Iran is seeking Nuclear weapons, it would not surprise Rabbit one bit. After all they have been attacked by one Rogure Nuclear nation, Israel, and are being threatened by the most satanic regime the Middle East has ever imagined. You don’t get it, looking at the world through CNN coloured glasses, but the USA is The Great Satan to far more than just fundmentalist Muslims.  The Iranians are at least a healthy democracy. I’m waiting for you to question that statement, because the comparison of your “democracy” with Iran’s is very telling. Even the Ukraine has a better democracy. When their election results were questionmed they had another go. You just had trhe High Court declare their guy winner.. WTH it is beyond your ability to ken this but in a democracy, the winner is meant to be the one who got most votes.

Democracy is not meant to be decided in court.

More to come...........

WTH jumping a few points here to deal with the following:

“I guess labeling must surely verify its the TRUTH”

I’m at a loss to understand this. No WTH labelling it as comment, makes it recognisable as opinion. This does not make truth, the facts and how they relate to the opinion are what make it truth.  Your misunderstanding comes from the inability to completely understand Facts and Opinions as being separate. This is not made clear in the MSM, and that is the point.  Frankly you are becoming less rational rather than more when you make such jumps of logic.

Opinions ar just that and rabbit is always happy to consider intelligent factually based opinions.  I( do not ever accept a story at face value when it is merely reported. I have learnt to seek the original source of any important news and thus form opinions. Others’ opinions can help towrds understanding, but Facts must be verifiable. That deos not mean they are merely reported in some MSM mouthpiece.

here is an example. You and anybody who takes the MSM news as gospel would no doubt believe some Suicide bombers have just struck in Bali.

That ius wrong. The Bombs (At least one) were under the table. That I know because thanks to RENSE, I was led to read a “Local: Australian Newspaper, part of the MSM for sure, it had interviewed a victim in Hospital and that is how I know the Bomb was under the table.

You are very sadly limiting yourself to mickey mouse news if you are determined to avoid the Alternative news carriers on the Internet. You and others like you, have no idea what Rense or Jones or ICH are about. You actually talk about them as Disnfo sites ant such. This is the funniest thing to regular readers of these sites, because they just link to MSM stories for the most part. The fact that these stories give a very different pictures of thingsa to the MSM, is due to selective reporting by the MSM.

A goose who claims these sites are biased is beyond a joke. These sites often carry links to their detractors and have very distinct disclaimers on the sites too. The whole suggestion that they are unreliable is a farce. The MSM, is unreliable, since it has long since shown it is committed to propounding lies and avoiding uncomfortable truths.

“Separating comment from fact would be a refreshing and unique approach”

Indeed WTH, why don’t you try it.

“I suggest you submit your resumé”

Beg your pardon? Rabbit is not interested in any job to do with economics if that is your intent. Rabbit is quite happy in his present business and frankly see’s little point in re-arranhing the deckchairs on the TITANIC.  Change the captain at this stage? Seems a bit late.

“ would certainly hope that should an immanent threat develop whoever is Commander in Chief would not wait for a world consensus before taking appropriate action”

What about if WORLD opinion was that you were wrong to attack? Precisely because there was no imminent threat? That is what the situation in reality is.  The situation you and others keep referring to like this, is hypothetical and we are actually discussing a real event, let us stop the waffle and deal with Facts, not fantasy.  Don’t come back with 911. Firstly Iraq was not in any way involved. Secondly 911 has not been established as having been anything specifically.  Even if it was, the score is decidedly in the favour of the USA. 3000 from 911, about 200,000 killed by the USA in retaliation. Wonder how many of those 200,000 actually was glad to see 911 happen at the time? Probably very few, but you don’t care, it is OK because they are not Americans.  Well Rabbit wishes to inform you that he places every Iraqi life as being worth at least ten American lives at this point.  You were once our friends and allies, but we don’t know you anymore.  The Iraqis were not exactly Rabbit’s favorite folk, having had Kurdish Iranian friends for years they had a low opinion of Iraqi courage among other things.  These days Rabbit has to admit that the Iraqi’s have shown themselves to be brave and determined people, they are fighting a just war of defence against an illegal aggression. These words will offend you, but they are backed by history, unavoidable and quite verifiable.

When you give details of Iranian Suicide Bombers attacking the USA, not claims by American liars, actual evidence that any such thing has happened, and that such has happened without justification, you will be taken seriously. In the Meantime WTH your argument is going round in circles. You have not done anything but refer to the shallow glossed over MSM story of things even when these have since been shown to be completely false. You have obviously not got any idea of the wrold beyond what the MSM tells you and that is tragically obvious to anybody who has travelled and knows people from many of the [places you refer to.

How about you try and tell Rabbit about Australia too. Do you also know all about Australia? You probably know about Kangaroos and Crocdile Dundee. It would probably come as a surprise to you to see a highly developed country with world leading scientists in many fields. We are a mostly urban nation. Kangaroos will not meet you at the airport. We also speak decidedly better English and have an average vocabulary more than triple the USA average.  We are much better travelled than Americans and we are much more aware of the rest of the world and our place in it.

You would shrivel up with shame if you were able to comprehend how the USA is now viewed by most of the world. Your hubris will not allow you to escape in time, but it will not save you from reality. Reality is fast approaching and it is going to run you guys over. That is of course an opinion WTH but Rabbit has previously linked to plenty of sources to establish many of the facts upon which this opinion is based.

If you wish to question this, just be honest and let Rabbit know what he needs to qualify.

Rabbit has made it clear that if he claims a FACT it will be established with sources. You have done little but question Rabbit’s sources without actually having seen too many yet. Any you do question has only been done on the strength of a glance at the URL. It has already been pointed out that this is the heightr of idiocy. Stop claiming that Facts are hard to establish. They are not. If they cannot be established then they are not Facts.

Stop avoiding the Hard stuff WTH. You have skedaddled every time we get down to establishing FACTS. Be honest and let us look at Facts, and see how well we can prove them before using your standard lines.  You have progressed too far in thinking to be able to use the old Dittohead tricks. You are being asked to look at sources and give your own, if you have any. The rules are not arbitrary. FACTS and OPINIONS have always been separated in the past. We still do that in the wider world. You are here debating with the wider world, so please, pick up the standard of your debate. Assume that we don’t watch American TV and thus must glean our Facts independantly.

Give us your facts with links and they will be considered, as such. Rabbit will give his Facts with links and you will be expected to consider them.

“If anyone speaks his mind while campaigning, he will suffer sound bite crucifixion”

This is because people like you WTH are being catered to. You don’t want to hear the truth and there are no politicians in the country who want to take the chance of trying to tell the truth. You won’t believe them if they do. You are proving it now.  If Kerry stood up and said that the USA is committing a war crime by attacking a sovereign nation without just cause. If he stood up and said that the use of Nuclear Waste as a weapon of war is a war crime and many should be held accountable for this, before the world brings the whole nation to account. If he said that the US economy is on the brink of collapse and if we don’t start stealing all the oil we can get our hands on this nation is going to crash and burn, very soon. Would you believe him? Of course you would not. These things are all true and we don’t have to wait much longer to see them happen.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls WTH
It tolls for thee.......

An opinion from people you only think exist on your TV screen.

Read it, nothing about holy wars, nothing about hating Americans way of life.

Rabbit is goint to make a point of posting opinions from “The East” just so we can see how fanatical and dangerous they “Really” are.
Maybe I can get some friend from the Middle East to post here to. How would you like the people about whom you are always theorising to tell you what they think?  Maybe you think that Rabbit is mad, surely Arabs can’t understand English you think. Certainly not enough to be any use. Well Rabbit can assure you that some Iraqis and Iranians he knows are far better at English than you or I. The problem the Iraqis have is they have only a few hours of electricity a day, and that is not enough to allow for discussion threads, it is needed for washing etc. It is enough only for them to get an occassional e-mail out or to post on their blogs once in a while.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9813

“Although The U.S. has never admitted that oil is the main goal behind its war on Iraq, and not bringing democracy to the Iraqi people and save them from the “dictator”, many analysts, also most of the Americans now believe that invading Iraq was simply to lay hands on the country’s oil wealth.

And this is the real threat the world needs to fight; the danger of U.S. desire to bring the world’s richest oil reserves under its own control and thus strengthen its hegemony worldwide”

Have a look at these two recent “speculative” articles on US economy. If you are any sort of businessman, as I think you mentioned once, it will not be necessary to point out that speculation is what economic forecasting is all about, so there is no points to be gained by pointing out that is is merely speculative. The Facts as presented in the articles and how they are interpreted is what counts.

Pop Goes the Real Estate Bubble. Some are still saying it is not a Bubble. Ha!

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/real_estate_bubble

Down, down, down goes the dollar. Up Up and away goes the gold.  Have we got lots of Gold stashed away? No we have not.  We have got lots of Dollars though. Yes, so has everybody, and guess what? We don’t want them anymore, you are going to have lots more of those dollars soon, as people realise that the Fiat currencies are on the brink of returning to their true value.  Nothing.

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/russell/russell101005.html

Remember that Venezuala just got out of all their Dollar reserves and turned them to Euro’s. In European Banks, too. Not that Chavez doesn’t trust American Banks or anything.

Now how much imagination does it take to see other BIG holders of Dollars and soon to be useless US bonds, getting rid of these as quietly and as fast as possible.

You are maybe one of those hubris filled Americans who thinks the world would not risk the damage to it’s economy which will also result from a US dollar collapse. You so underestimate other people you would never understand.  You have left people with little option. You can pretend you are taking the world over for it’s own good, but the world didn’t ask you to, and we have decided we’d rather survive global economic collapse rather than a global War with maniacs like the USA and Israel involved.

Now this is going to piss them off!

USA loses control of the Internet....not happy faces.

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,16376,1585288,00.html

Rabbit says,
“How the hell can anyone proove they don’t have something?”

Now then, you finally get it! 

There is NO PROOF that WMD do not exist just because they have not been found. Bingo!

Hello whattheheck,
Yes, but how about mere EVIDENCE (never mind actual PROOF) that they (WMDs) did exist, and could be activated in less than 1 hour’s time, as per the British and US governments’ assertions? Those went a long way toward shaping US public opinion and congressional backing for the invasion.

We heard then that there was real evidence that such weapons systems did exist, and as of this writing, the US government publically gave up even looking for any more evidence of Iraqi WMDs long ago, having apparently decided that to continue searching is a waste of time. This despite the fact that WMD in Saddam’s hands was the single most repeated and most actively hyped threat offered to the US public as the justification for war. Were there other agendas in addition to WMD? Maybe there were, however Saddam’s record of brutality (nor any other factor) was never the centerpiece of the Bush team’s propaganda offensive leading up to March 2003’s invasion. Certainly his brutality was not sufficient cause for invasion or “regime change” during Bush I nor during Clinton I and II, well-known though it might have been. When it came to the hearts and minds of Americans, “weapons of mass destruction” were dinned into our heads by President Bush and his cabinet most frequently, most loudly, and with the most “convincing” backing provided by allies (e.g. T. Blair describing a 45-minute prep time before massively destructive weapons were supposedly ready to rock from Iraqi soil).

I asked this question of scorp back when he was posting here: If it was all about the world’s strong/rich powers deciding to bust a move against dictatorship and in-border harm against citizens by their hateful overlords, why not just advertise it that way? Why dress it all up in false WMD finery?

It’s rather a moot point, actually. The fact is, American boots are on the ground in Iraq and to pull out precipitously would make civil war there a near-certainty. I still consider it an open question whether the new Iraqi government can prevent such a war, even with a slow pullout of US troops and trainers/advisors left behind to help rebuild Iraq’s security apparatus. The record for US-installed regimes in the region (e.g. Iran) suggests that my grandchildren will be dealing with this shit, sown today but reaped in a generation’s time from now.

I won’t even start talking about all those passionate Baathists in the former Iraqi Army and, most especially, the Republican Guard, not 20 years hence but right now. Where the hell are all those guys? Recruiting, accessing countless weapons caches (not WMD, just the regular, heinously destructive sort that oppressors and killers everywhere use, and that governments everywhere make profit from marketing), and setting off vehicle bombs.

My ongoing question is, does my country have a half-chance in hell of doing right by the people whose lives they’ve decided to take center stage in? So far in Afghanistan it appears that Metro Kabul is on the way to maybe, with huge luck, being declared “secure”, with the rest of the country pretty much out of control. Iraq looks a lot like that as well, from my admittedly distant vantage point.

What will we have accomplished there, in the long term? Anything admirable?

Do I have to live to see my country so energetically and compulsively fuck up its own hard-won reputation as a force for good on this planet? Gotta tell ya, the reviews on the last 4+ years’ activity are decidedly mixed!

CORRECTION:
We are obligated to stay until that is accomplished. Whatever form of government they decide upon should be decided by IRANIANs.

Should have said IRAQIs.

Rabbit asks,
“What will we have accomplished there, in the long term? Anything admirable?”

I guess we’ll have to see what all those Iraqis who dared to vote last year decide to do with their country. That took guts.

Whoops, sorry. That last was for Kuya. I meant to click preview.

Rabbit never previews, silly Rabbit. There is a certain signature to Rabbit postings which make it near impossible to duplicate, however and Rabbit feels the occasional embarrassing spelling errors have thus got a trade-off.

Here is a good article on Iran and the whole issue.  It is mainly an opinion piece which does hwever refer to widely known facts.

Rabbit hopes WTH does read all articles posted when they are directed his way. Rabbit promises he does so self and if he has not read any piece he always does before commenting.

I try to keep sources to a minimum, and relevant either to a FACT, in which case I’ll state what FACT is being refferenced, or to a concept which will also be clear I hope.

(By the way Rabbit throws in the occasional I and Me as a gesture to thsoe who have once or twice begged for these, it is not any inconsistency on MY part)

The following is a good roundup of a view of Iran/Iraq which is common to far more people, than the view held by WTH. You should just get a picture of how we see it, and realise Rabbit isn’t making up these things from his own Rabbit head.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mike_whi_051007_edging_towards_disas.htm

Something at least as important, has WTH ever taken the time to read Riverbend’s Blogspot?

“Bahgdad Burning” ...........?

This is a very interesting journey into the world of a truly lovely young woman. Rabbit loves this star from afar.  Do yourself a favour and get this perspective.  Enjoy the journey and do leave any sceptisism at the door. The quality of River’s English is very understandable if you know her history and she has long since been established to be the real deal.  If you wish to expend the time and energy others have to try and discredit this lady, you will be wasting your time. It is a well worn path and nobody can claim it got them anywhere, I checked a long time ago.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

The quake was felt across a wide swath of South Asia from central Afghanistan to western Bangladesh. It swayed buildings in the capitals of three nations, with the damage spanning at least 250 miles (400 kilometers) from Jalalabad in Afghanistan to Srinagar in Indian Kashmir

.............and you tell me over and over and over again my friend, .........you don’t believe we’re on the eve of destruction......................^^...............

The quake was felt across a wide swath of South Asia from central Afghanistan to western Bangladesh. It swayed buildings in the capitals of three nations, with the damage spanning at least 250 miles (400 kilometers) from Jalalabad in Afghanistan to Srinagar in Indian Kashmir

A terrible tragedy. There are estimating up to 30,000 casualties.

How many days has it been now, since it happened? Why hasn’t the national government rescued everyone?

WTH the national government has the situation well in hand. There is nobody actually criticising their efforts and that is for the reason that they are handling it very well.

The disaster is a very major one, in actuality and the casualties will probably be twice the 30,000 being estimated. these things always go like that. Don’t you remeber the Boxing Day Tsunami, early estimates were just 15,000, even three days later.

Please do not have the temerity to compare a massive earthquake across the areas you yourself quoted, with the “small” storm which became a tragedy because of a historically poor response by a government.

WTH to even try and make a point like this would be laughable, if it was not in such bad taste.  Do you realise the difference between a storm with days warning and an earthquake which just strikes, and in a few seconds does what it does?

The stricken countries are further more, accepting any and all help which is being offerred by other nations, which is also helping things along. A distinct contrast to the vicious dog in a corner attitude the USA showed when it was offerred help in it’s recent difficulties.

Whattheheck, Rabbit has been extremely controlled in this reply. If you are the person Rabbit thinks you might be, please read this post very slowly, at least twice.  Think about a sensible retraction of the attempted point. Seriously I think you may have overreached on that one and an admission of this will be welcome as well as sensible.

There are actually a few jokesbeing told on the Radio comparing the handling of this Tragedy to hurricane Katrina, they are not very complimentary, I can tell you.

That my friend is the MSM.

Rabbit is still maintaining his control but cannot avoid pointing out that the authorities in Pakistan are helping get food and help from all sources into the stricken ones.

They have not put a military perimeter around the stricken area to stop everyone going in or out either.

They are evacuating those who need it and they are not actually shooting anyone or threatening to do so yet.

Furthermore it is three days since it happened..................

“Our rough estimates say more than 30,000 people have died in the earthquake in Kashmir,” minister Tariq Farooq said on Sunday.

A Little Help from a Nun…
A soldier came to a fork in the road and saw a nun standing there. He asked her, “Please Sister, may I hide under your skirts for a few minutes? I’ll explain why later.”

The nun agreed to his request. Shortly thereafter, two MP’s came running along and asked her if she had seen a soldier running down the road. She replied, “He went that way.”

After the MP’s disappeared, the soldier crawled out from under her skirt and said, “I can’t thank you enough Sister, but you see, I don’t want to go to Iraq.” The nun said she understood. The GI said, “I hope you don’t think me rude or impertinent, but you have the most beautiful pair of legs I’ve ever seen!”

The nun replied, “If you had looked a little higher, you would have seen
the most beautiful pair of balls you’ve ever seen! I don’t want to go to Iraq either.”

The above is meant to be funny and it is not expected anybody would be offended of course.

Telling it has nothing to do with earlier comment.  Rabbit just saw it in the weekly South African Report and passed it on.

“Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes...known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”

- James Madison, Political Observations, 1795

Good macro economic article, thanks to the MONK.  More and more are catching on to the big game now.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CLA20050927& &articleId=199

My letter to The Weekly Standard in response to an article:
“Criminalizing Conservatives” by Bill Kristol

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/211eywgm.asp

------------------------------------------------------------------------

“For over four years, they have helped two strong conservatives, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, successfully advance an agenda for change in America.”

Not something to brag about.

Bush got my vote twice, but has been a huge disappointment. These guys are not conservative in any sense of the word.

We are constantly hearing how “good” the economy is. BS!

After four years more people are working without benefits, individual, corporate and national debt is soaring.

Homeland Security (my main reason to vote for him) is a sick joke. More illegals are swarming into the country and Bush wants to create a sub-minimum wage category and make them “guests”.

Social Security is heading toward reducing benefits to keep the upper tax bracket contributors happy instead of simply removing the $90,000 cap and taxing all earnings.

We keep hearing, “More people own their homes than ever before.” The banks own the homes and may soon be stuck with them due to NO MONEY DOWN loans out there.

Last year Tom Delay’s office tried to snooker me by giving me the title of Honorary Advisory Council Member and flat out lied when they told me this was not a fund raising job. Yesterday I got a similar call from Tom Reynold’s office. It is, once again, just a contribution ploy so they can list my name in a Wall Street Journal ad.

These guys are so inept it is pathetic.  They have no clue what “conservative” is. They have not conserved our jobs, our money, our safety, our country’s future.

Barry Goldwater where are you?

It’s good enough Whattheheck.

Rabbit gave up writing letters to mainstream long ago.  But somebody has too, and a conservative viewpoint, will be listened to by the people who are most out on the wrong side.

Rabbit actually values conservatism, and on many issues would rather not even debate, even though my own views may differ. The issues may not be as important in the overall scheme of things as us finding the common ground.  Rabbit has long since recognised in you a ‘true’ conservative and this is the source of the respect and patience he shows you. Admittedly the olive branch is used as a club from time to time, but a small one and no bigger than you wack the Bunny with from time to time. 

The thing is Rabbit would not actually seek to change your conservative stance. The hint as to why is to be found in the words of F.A. Hynek posted by Luminous Beauty on the God Squad thread.  Rabbit is not a true liberal in all respects you would recognise as it happens either.  As with religion Rabbit’s Politics can only be loosely labelled and Anarcho-Socialism is the closest. At the same time there is a republican dimension and the fluidity, and adaptive nature of Liberalism would be lost to the peril of any society.

We seem now to have come to a momentous time in history. The whole world is sitting up and taking notice of certain International scale actions by a powerful player gone mad.  This just when we thought we were about to enter a new age of global harmony. Mate it was looking good for a few years there.  For the first time in Rabbit’s life the threat of Nuclear Anhialation and global war was no longer there.  Just as soon as we started to see the chance, the USA suddenly stepped up and declared an unspecified war against an arbitrary label. Terrorism. Now this is and has proven to be an arbitrary label, because it has been used to refer to first one, and then another group. There is NO SUCH THOING as a terrorist Nation, but so far two countries have been attacked and three more are on the cards to be hit soon too. The line between good and evil has shifted my friend.  There was and still is an argument for removing hussein from power. Not a bad one either if the USA had the high moral ground to start with, but as former supporters of Hussein, at his worst, and as the tormentors who destroyed the country with ten years of truly awful sanctions, no moral right to point the finger in the first place.  If the occupation had proceeded in an enlightened and respectful fashion some credibility may have been retained, but it hasn’t.

There is no moral justification to attack Iran, probably nothing serious enough to attack Suria and absolutely not any reason in the world to attack Venezuala.

None of those countries loves the USA, they all have VERY good reasons NOT to love the USA.
When you eventually come to look at their reasons, and prove for yourself the truth of them, you will understand. Furthermore, you will recognise that the world makes a lot more sense than it sometimes seems to.

Have you ever actually wondered how weird these Muslims must be?  How totally strange a people they must be to actually believe they had a need to kill you, all the way around the other side of the earth? Just because they Hated your way of life?

I swear to you from one Man (rabbit) to another, I know that most Muslims, and all Muslim Countries are happy to just be left alone, without US propped up regimes like the Saudis and the Shah, not to mention those thieves in Kuwait or the Pakistanis, Turkey. Any country in the Mid east which has a bastard government has it for one of two reasons.  Either they are put in place and supported by the USA, or they are a reaction to the threats of the USA.  Moderate governments are historically unpopular with poeple who are being threatened by others, has it never occurred to you haow transparent some international politics is?

A couple of examples.

Consider, many Iranians do not trust the USA and that the USA was in the throes of making some very substantial threats to Iranian security during the lead up to the election.  The USA had made it very clear who they did not want to be elected. they blatantly backed their preffered guys, who like Chalabi are criminals and ratbags. They even backed some bombings and “terror” which is not often seen in Iranian politics, at the time. Whether or not you were aware of this, it was happening and being reported elsewhere but not the USA of course.  This made it even more likely that Armadinejad would be elected, and he was, convincingly. Actually an open minded assessment would show the Iranians made the best choice anyway. They are actually a very sensible people, practical. They are also very brave and veruy determined. It is not out of insanity that they “Defend” themselves with Suicide bombers, but out of a deep sense of defending their country and people.  They scared the bejesus out of the Iraqi’s who enjoyed US siupport when they first attacked the Iranians. The Iranian suicide tactics meant that poison gas, liberally used by Hussein, it was supplied by the USA, were useless. The Iranians kept on coming, wave afetr wave they simply swamped the Iraqi’s in their own blood.

Today Iran is much stronger, they have many more allies and they will once again only be defending their own land.  They will not hesitate to fight and die for their land, they never would. They will not only drown you in their blood, they will add a hell of a lot of their enemies blood to the mix.

WTH, Rabbit does not love the Mullahs, his Iranian friends don’t want the Mullahs. They are quite pissed off with America for ahving put so much pressure on them that the Mullahs have come to power.  I have digressed a bit, sorry.

Another International political ploy was seen in the US election.

Osama Bin Laden, supposedly puts out a video saying he supports Kerry for the election. He promises blood if the Americans re-elect Bush.

That was so obvious at the time that there was much speculation that the Bush camp has faked the Video. Now do you really think that Bin-Laden is so stupid and un-sophisticvated that he did not know he was helping Bush get re-elected?  I hope you do not WTH, this would suggest that you think Bush is typical of the level of sophistication common among powerful men. Bin Laden certainly knew what effect this would have and I strongly suspect the USA knew what their efforts during the Iranian election would achieve.  They needed a hardline government to act as a foil to justify an attack, which is drawing closer by the day.

Like I said, stir up the Iranians and you can kiss peace goodbye..

The other side to this is still a much larger picture, this has been reffered to by me and revolves around the Iranian Oil Burse plans and the Euro versus Dollar OIL.

Basically we have reached that time predicted in our youth, a global war over energy, oil.  It is being brought on more dramatically because of the overbalanced US use of the stuff.

A good link.

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/2005/1014.html

Rabbit,

There is obviously no way we will agree on the war on terrorism issue. OK? But how about this one…

You said, “There is no moral justification to attack Iran...”

I beg to differ, strangly enough on moral grounds. If you are the biggest, strongest kid on the block you should watch out for the weaker and younger ones and protect them in any way possible.

Right now, the U.S. is the only major military power. (This is soon to change as China continues to gain technologically.) As such, in my opinion, we are obligated to do much more “world policing” than we have. We have ignored Africa and too much of South America when tyrants have plundered and tortured their own citizens and their neighbors.

Saddam is a bastard who deserved to be removed. My only criticisms of this are 1.) We should have done it in 1991. 2.) If done later, we should have considered the post war problems and been prepared to better deal with them.

Rabbit,

I think I can understand when other people hate us and/or our lifestyle. Some of their feelings I consider justified, but not to the level of wanting to kill. As for the Muslims in particular, theirs is a relatively young religion.

I see the Bible as a record of man’s perceptions of life expressed in the concept of some sort of deity’s plan. As man’s concepts evolved from the Old Testament to the New Testament, there is a switch from, “Avoid mixing with people who are different and kill them whenever you can.” to a more philosophical and loving tolerance of others. A change from force to persuasion.

It is my view that things are not true because they are in the Bible, but many things are in the Bible because man has found them to be true.

I expect the Muslim religion will become less belligerent over time. But TIME has been compressed with instant communication and the ability of an individual to do HUGE mischief.

This same advance in communication allows our western ways to infringe upon others’ customs and preferences in a way which makes them uncomfortable at best and fearful quite often.  Globalization is driving a wedge between countries at the same time as it is merging our interests.

One thing technology has not changed is the effect of greed.

Which brings us to your point concerning oil.

As you said, “Basically we have reached that time predicted in our youth, a global war over energy, oil.  It is being brought on more dramatically because of the overbalanced US use of the stuff.”

Yes, we use more and there are still some who feel justified because, “The Western world has developed the technology to turn it into a usable commodity.” We in the U.S. have become far too dependent on it and have squandered its use. Thirty years ago we had a chance to begin developing alternative energy sources, but the greed and political influence squelched any attempts.

As countries like China and India, with immense populations increase their usage this problem will only get worse. Greed knows no borders.

Hi Whattheheck, Quoting you and Rabbit :

Rabbit said : “There is no moral justification to attack Iran...”

WTH said : “I beg to differ, strangely enough on moral grounds. If you are the biggest, strongest kid on the block you should watch out for the weaker and younger ones and protect them in any way possible.”

Whattheheck, I agree that the strong should help the weak. But I want to understand your moral justification for an attack on Iran better.

So, with respect, and some elaboration, your opinion and justification of an attack on Iran would seem to be this, please correct me where I may be overstating :

The United States of America, being the biggest kid, some would say bully, decides that another kid/country, i.e Iran, Syria, etc.  is giving the big kid/bully/country, or one of his fellow not so big kid/bully/country/friends, funny looks, and this kid, i.e Iran, may even be saying they will defend themselves should the big kid/bully/country, or their not so big kid/bully/country/friends see fit to strike them first.

That as a given, then the USA big kid/bully/world policeman is justified in beating the shit out of them? Sucker punch before possibly getting sucker punched?

When they, i.e Iran, have not done anything except funny looks and vows of self defence?

How do you justify that when in the very next post you say : “ I think I can understand when other people hate us and/or our lifestyle. Some of their feelings I consider justified, but not to the level of wanting to kill.”

So, please clarify, specifically regarding moral justification for attacking Iran :

How then is it justified to hate and kill them?

Please, don’t say because they hate and kill us. That is not a moral justification.

Please, don’ say because they hate us and are thinking, maybe, one day, about possibly having to defend themselves. This is not a moral justification, even less so if possible.

Since the semblance of international law existed in the 1991 war, indeed Hussein should have been removed then, many people in Iraq were promised it would happen and they were left at the alter. There Saddam found them and murdered them.

The fact is that the USA preffered instead to subject IRAQ to ten years of absolutely inhumane sanctions which cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocents, many children and RICE acknowledged this, calling it justified.  This cannot be spinned any other way, the USA subjected IRAQ to unconscioable sanctions and when Iraq was on its knees, then used trickery and lies to invade.  The invasion of IRAQ and the subsequent occupation is becomeing entrenched in the world consciousness as one of the worst war crimes of history and you are still talking about morals.  WTH you are missing the most BASIC point which is acknowledged now by at least as many Americans as who feel your way. The simple caveat to every claim to moral rectitude by you.  The USA cannot trade on past good deeds forever.

You lost the high moral ground some time ago and are no longer seen as a knight in shining armour.

You have become a deceitful and viscious pirate nation, with no humanity in it’s dealings with other weaker nations and decreasing respect even for the rights of your own citizens.  Your dreams of democracy and human rights are not looking like anything but blindness to reality anymore.

As for the War on Terror, there is no such thing.

Even if Muslim Terrorists were solely responsible for 911, so they killed 3000 people (Not just Americans), so Bloody what?

Quite simply to go to war against other countries over that, is absolute rubbish. Lame and insane.

So somebody killed 3000 of you. In return you bomb one country into the stone age and poison the land with Nuclear Waste, against international laws. You are now eying off two maybe three more countries, (Actually maybe 6), and they don’t even have dictatorships and evil governments. 

You have killed upwards of 150,000 innocent civilians, (except there are no innocent muslims to you) and are obviously intending to continue this brand of warfare into the foreseeable future.  You are too unimaginative to realise that a WAR on Terror can never be won.  It is a self fulfilling concept. You can attack a peaceful group of people, and they will turn to terrorism to defend themselves if they are too weak to do anything else.

You are supporting a loathesome position WTH and it is only because Rabbit believes you are very severely handicapped in respect of what you know that he is remaining nice. You really don’t know very much, even though you think you do.  there are pleanty of good Americans on this site who can prove to you that it is possible to be an American and not believe you are a nation of superhumans. The NAZIs had the same fatal Hubris WTH, remeber won’t you that Bush’s were NAZIs then, why would they be any different now?  Fascism is still the same animal, Corporate Government.

WTH God kills tens of thousands of people on a regular basis, how about you point your guns and missiles at him and let fly the lot? Straight up and consequences be damned.

You may think that sounds insane, Bush and his Junta might see the sense in that.  If God talks to Bush then Bush might be getting a bum steer from God and this is really what is driving him back to the bottle and pills.  They might just get it into their strabge Neo-con heads to shoot at god. The consequences of this action, are unlikely to be understood by an administration that thinks it can convince people the three WORLD TRADE CENTERS fell down due to gravity alone.  Gravity is a fundamental principle which all the lies and money and blood in the world will not change, the whole lot will come down on your heads eventually.

You did realise that didn’t you WTH?
....................................................................^^.......... ...........................

Just checking.............

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5: 44-45

“He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me!” In those who harbor such thoughts hatred is not appeased.

“He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me!” In those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred is appeased.

Hatreds never cease through hatred in this world; through love alone they cease. This is an eternal law.

Buddhism : Dhammapada 3-5

MerriMonk.....................................^^............................. .............

Rabbit said,
“Since the semblance of international law existed in the 1991 war, indeed Hussein should have been removed then, many people in Iraq were promised it would happen and they were left at the alter. There Saddam found them and murdered them.”

Here we are in agreement.

And… “The fact is that the USA preffered instead to subject IRAQ to ten years of absolutely inhumane sanctions which cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocents, many children and RICE acknowledged this, calling it justified.”

Here we are in agreement.

Sanctions seldom have had the desired effect. As long as anything is available those at the top of society will survive unscathed, while the lowest and poorest will feel the entire effect of the privation.

However, while you constantly limit any and all blame to the U.S., may I remind you that these were the U.N.’s sanctions NOT U.S. exclusively as you indicate. This is where the Oil for Food money was gathered by unscrupulous individuals from several countries.

Also, in your effort to put any downside on the U.S. you make no allowance that the “innocent civilians” being killed are primarily from either suicide bombers or from IED — what I suppose we could call “collateral damage” from of the insurgents.
----------------------------------------

Following those comments we have no basis for further discussion on the issue of the war on terror. Since you apparently have your mind completely frozen on what you consider the facts and the truth.

You say there is no War of Terror.

“Even if Muslim Terrorists were solely responsible for 911, so they killed 3000 people (Not just Americans), so Bloody what?”

How can we discuss this? I would kill anyone who killed my family, friends, fellow countrymen. You would not — end of conversation.

David,

When I wrote, “ I think I can understand when other people hate us and/or our lifestyle. Some of their feelings I consider justified, but not to the level of wanting to kill.”

I meant that their dislike for our lifestyle and any threat they may feel to theirs is not enough to justify their (the Muslim fundamentalists) wanting to kill us.  I see the same pattern in Old Testament passages when that religion was young.
I assume you meant to say Iraq when you wrote, “When they, i.e Iran, have not done anything except funny looks and vows of self defense?”

With regard to our going into Iraq, I viewed the Iraqi people as the weak and Saddam as the bully.  I believe we should have forced him out in 1991 rather than wait. “Never put off until tomorrow, what you can do today..”

If you indeed were referring to Iran, then I would have to say, once again, we are not at war with nations but with an ideology (Muslim extremists) who know no boundaries. We must be alert for any threat of attack from any source. Due to the ability of an individual to do such terrible damage waiting for the “sucker punch” could be devastating. This is why the British police killed the Brazilian. This was a situation where someone had to decide immediately — not to decide was no option. I am afraid we will see more of these examples.

Too bad your scripture quotes are not followed by all. Nice ideas, but mankind never changes.

WTH

Rabbit and most of the world does limit the blame for the sanctions to the USA. This is for the same reason that any sanctions which are brought to bear against Iran will be wholly the doing of the USA.  Then as now the USA pressured the UN, HUGELY, bribing and threatening other members to do their vidding. This is also being done, and with even less justification in the case of IRAN.  The “Dowing Street memos” clearly show that the sanctions and all the more and more strict requirements were being manipulated so as to set up IRAQ for attack. That is history and is supported now by a lot more than just the British minutes.  as I said the same process is now being used against the Iranians, and it will not do to say in a few years that it was anyone else than the USA who started pressuring Iran.

It is the same as how many of yours are trying to use the excuse about the non-existent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, claiming that the evidence was faulty. The fact then as now is that the evidence does not exist to back the claims. The CIA said about Saddams Iraq that there were no WMDs. The CIA is saying about IRAN that they are not even close to producing nuclear weapons. The CIA like everybody else is also telling the Junta that Iran is not a threat to anybody but that any attack on Iran will be massively disruptive to the Middle East and will cause a massive rise in terrorism worldwide.

You are being denied the moral support of the UN, you know perfectly well that it has tried unsuccessfully to reign in US ambitions for some time, that does not make it responsible when the USA does something wrong.  The UN is not a strong a body as it could be, mostly because it has been consistently undermined by the USA. It always amuses Rabbit to hear Americans criticising the UN. It has always been dominated by the USA, has as said being undermined regularly by the USA, so who the hell is to blame for the fact the UN has no teeth? 

The oil for food money was made largely by US companies, or are you forgetting this.  Many of the other Oil for Food issues were in fact no more illegal than that they were negotiated in EUROs and not dollars. This is an arbitrary rule of the USA and has been exp0lained before.

Others who have been caught up in that so called scandal, were “set-up” like George Galloway and have been exonerated. Does WTH not realise that the reason the “Oil FOR FOOD” scandal suddenly dissapeared from the papers was because it turned out most of the serious offeneders were US companies?

There is a story of an aid agency who is the only ones prosecuted so far, see muzzled voices.  Nope, WTH, No moral high hground around here, keep looking.

You are quite incorrect about the “Innocent” civilians. Most of them are being killed by bombs and missiles fired by the USA.  Don’t you dare to make up such details, WTH. Your claim that those 150,000 deaths are mostly due to insurgents are so false. You are NOT to lower yourslf to denying basic truth. IF you do not realise this, please ask and you will be given the evidence.  On the day of the London Bombings alone, I recall more than fifty Iraqis were killed by a single US bomb.  That is a scale of civilian deaths that occurs on a weekly basis most of the time.  Those of us who care, who are indeed taking notice of these things, know and will prove it to you if you wish.  There is no debate on this fact at all.  The figures are alos used by international bodies, whether or not you accept those bodies, they are internationally recognised.  Again I say NO moral high ground to be found. WTH you are coming from an indefensible position, and that is the only reason you cannot, will not make any ground on these issues.  I am not trying to change your mind about anything.  The ONLY thing I want to do is ensure you have the right facts upon which to base your opinions. From there you will change your own mind if you have to or want to.  You are too good a person to continue to give your energy and support to a bankrupt cause.

You are wrong to think Rabbit hates the USA. Rabbit has many American friends and the whole reason he uses so much time working on the Internet on such issues is due to a kinship and reliance on the USA. We are tied to the USA as a country, for reasons that are only partially clear. Rabbit does not even support Iraq, his friends are more Iranians and many of them have always had a low opinion of Iraqis having killed a lot of them in war.  But my opinion of anybody is not at issue.  The issues are human rights, equality and survival of our race.

Take note also that many of the worst car bombings have been recently more and more shown to be American and British forces. As a matter of fact the Iraqis have known that all along.  150,000 is the approximate figure of civilians Killed by the coalition forces in Iraq “SO FAR”. 

You keep saying my mind is closed, and this is patently not the case. I have given actual sources for any facts claimed and if you wish to question any others, say so, sources will be posted. You are the one who has specifically said you will not change your mind. That is a straight out claim to having a CLOSED MIND. Rabbit has said quite the opposite and has shown his willingness to examine facts if they are questionable.  What FACT exactly do you wish to question? You keep repeating ONE-EYED versions of history, when all the rest of the story I claim can be proven.  It isn’t that all your facts are wrong, just enough are missing that your opinions are not taking you where you imagine they are. This is why you cannot ever look good in these debates. You don’t I promise. You have the ability but you lack the information, it is all only seconds away from your fingertips as you sit there at your computer..  Why can’t you read anything which challenges your narrow views?  There is nothing you could give Rabbit he wouldn’t read, assuming he has not already. 
You actually have only been told a few of Rabbit’s opinions and in nearly every case you have agreed with them.  The things which you are disagreeing with are not opinions, they are facts, and this is either something I can establish or not. But if you won’t read what is given you how can I prove a fact to you?  Opinions will follow only after we have established the facts. You keep on repeating things which are actually not facts even though you call them such. If you claim a Fact and it is questioned, it should be easy enough to prove it either way, give us a reference.

How can we discuss 911?  Wll WTH it is not hard actually. You see it is becoming more and more apparent that the US government was at least partially responsible for 911.  At the moment the best that you can say is that it has not been proven, in a court of law.  This is so far true but is unlikely to remain so for much longer, for several reasons detailed on another thread.

Let us hypothesise WTH.

Let us for arguments sake, suppose that the people who pulled off 911, were controlled or manipulated by the US government, or more likely Mossad, who are after all past masters at this sort of thing.  This being so, even though some extremists may have been involved they were clearly incapable of pulling this off withgout a lot of help. The exercise and various orders and counterorders of the morning of 911 needed to happen or frankly there is no way those planes could have stayed aloft and off course for so long.  So in this scenario the main protagonists are not actually Muslim Fanatics, in fact eye-witnesses prove that some at least were not devout muslims even.  IF this was the case, would WTH feel any differently about things Rabbit wonders?

Many people have been going on about the “Muslim Fundamentalists” in Indonesia who pulled off the Bali bombings and the recent blasts.  Rabbit and others have known the truth about this all along.  Now even our National broadcaster has put the truth about “Government Sponsored” terrorism being the culprit.  There are NO FUNDAMENTALIST TERROR GROUPS IN INDONESIA.. 

The thing here is WTH, this is the MSM, although it is of course the State owned ABC our equivenlant of the BBC who is brave enough to cross the line of lying about such things.  Only an Aussie could understand why it would “OF COURSE” be the ABC who is honest. The commerical stations are owned by the same wanks who own the US media, that is why.

WTH IRAQ and even Afghanistan actually expressed sympathy with the USA on 911, did you know that or care?  So a few fundametalists in some countries, a very few and mostly they were in ISRAEL danced and were glad. The nations themselves expressed sorrow and outrage, but you attacked them as a proxy for fundamentalists even they wanted no truck with.

NOPE,

NO MORAL HIGH GROUND TO BE FOUND FOR YOU MY FRIEND.

So tell us why America is so muc more righteous than everybody else, that they are not bound by intrenational treaties on human rights or nuclear proliferation. Did WTH realise that the BIGGEST current abuser of Nuclear NON-PROLIFERATION, is the USA?

You just don’t have enough Nuclear weapons to feel safe yet it seems.

WTH, can you imagine the contempt REAL MEN, feel for a country of PANSIES who need hundreds of times more Nuclear weapons than everybody combined, and yet still live in such terror of others they are ready to give up all their freedoms to feel safer?

Sometimes the Aussie male in me just wants to jump down this computer screen and kick a couple of stupid Yankee butts. For crying out loud man look at the AMOUNT of weapons you clowns have got stockpiled, what rights or freedom do you still own which is worth defending? They don’t look like much even from here, buddy.  You are actually AFRAID of some of the [poorest and most underprivelaged people on Earth and you have a national psychosis which resembles either a superman or a messiah complex…

You are neither Superman nor the Messiah. You guys can’t even get away with being called naughty little boys anymore. You ahve become no more, and no less, than the biblical prediction of the GREAT WHORE OF BABYLON.

Muslims dislike your lifestyle about the same as you dislike theirs, you are the only one doing the killing though. They are just asking to be left alone. No Muslims are coming from IRAQ even today to kill Americans. As for killing Americans and Brits and Aussies who are involved in a militrary invasion of their country, stiff shit. The invasion is illegal and the first Officer in the UK is being court mashalled now over refusing to go on these grounds. Rabbit thinks he will probably win. The British courts are like the Australian Courts, much harder to corrupt than the US courts.  The war has already been declared unlawful internationally. Now one of the co-alition has gotten itself into a bind, having to prove the legality of the war in it’s own courts.  Let’s see what happens.

The following is from Rabbit’s friend in Baghdad, Riverbend. 

“The referendum promises to be somewhat confusing. People are saying it should be postponed. Now is not the right time. More changes were made a few days ago to the supposed ‘final’ draft of the constitution- the one that was submitted to the UN. It was allegedly done to appease Sunnis.

The trouble is that it didn’t address the actual problems Iraqis have with the constitution (Sunnis and Shia alike). The focus of negotiations by ‘Sunni representatives’ seemed to revolve around Iraq’s Arab identity and de-Ba’athification. A clause has also been added which says that the constitution will be subject to change (quelle surprise! Yet again!) with the new government after the next elections. That doesn’t make me feel better because changes can work both ways: if the next ‘elected’ government is, again, non-secular, pro-Iran, the amendments made to what is supposed to be a permanent constitution will be appalling.

Iraq’s Arab identity, due to its Arab majority, won’t be reduced just because it isn’t stated over and over again in a constitution. It’s as if the people negotiating the constitution chose to focus on the minute, leaving the more important issues aside. Issues like guaranteeing Iraq’s unity and guaranteeing that it won’t be turned into an Islamic state modeled on Iran.

The referendum is only hours away and the final version of the constitution still hasn’t reached many people. Areas with a Sunni majority are complaining that there aren’t polling stations for kilometers around- many of these people don’t have cars and even if they did, what good would it do while there’s a curfew until Sunday? Polling stations should be easily accessible in every area.

This is like déjà vu from January when people in Mosul and other Sunni areas complained that they didn’t have centers to vote in or that their ballot boxes never made it to the counting stations.

American media is trying to make it sound like Sunnis have suddenly been mollified with the changes made in a flurry of covert meetings these last few days, but the reality is that the only Sunni party openly supporting the constitution is the Iraqi Islamic Party which represents a very, very small percentage of Sunnis.

Most educated Iraqis want to vote against the constitution. This makes the fact that Iraqis abroad aren’t being allowed to vote this time around worrisome. Why was it vital for them to vote for a temporary government back in January but it’s not necessary for them to contribute to this referendum which will presumably decide a permanent constitution for generations and generations of Iraqis? Could it be that the current Iranian inclined government knew that many Iraqis abroad didn’t like the constitution because of federalism, women’s rights, and the mention of no laws to be placed which contradict Islam?

Iraqis are going to be voting according to religious clerics and, in some areas, tribal sheikhs. They aren’t going to be voting according to their convictions or their understanding of what is supposed to be a document that will set the stage for Iraqi laws and regulations. Juan Cole wrote about an example of this with Muqtada Al-Sadr’s followers:

The young Shiite nationalist, Muqtada al-Sadr, advised his followers to consult the ruling of Ayatollah Kadhim al-Haeri (resident in Qom, Iran) concerning how to deal with the constitution. He said that this was an issue that required independent juridical reasoning (ijtihad).

http://www.juancole.com/2005/10/grand-ayatollahs-urge-yes-vote-sunni.html

That’s all we need- it’s not enough that Zalmay Khalilzad is gushing over the constitution- all we need now is another cleric (stationed in Iran this time) to influence the masses.