As the years pass and the men who dropped the bombs expire in their beds, the rate at which Laotians die from U.S. unexploded ordnance (UXO) rises. Since the end of the Vietnam War, the millions of yellow cluster bombs that litter Laos have claimed more than three times as many dead as the World Trade Center attacks. Thanghon is… return to article
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Reader Comments (35)Page 1 of 1 pagesi wonder if laos could sue america irresponsible for what it did in laos.
Posted by isaki on Aug 8, 2006 at 9:13 PM UXO from WWl is still blowing up in France occasionally. I would assume a lot is out there all across Europe from WW2 as well.
Nearly 45,000 people in the US die each year in car accidents.
Let’s single out someone to blame for each and all, OK?
So, Terry, did you buy your lunch or walk to work?
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 9, 2006 at 10:21 AM Your connection between UXO and car crashes I must say is rather spurious. The decimation of rural indigenous populations has been a major US policy for the past 60 years and continues to this day. Perhaps there is a more fundamental question to be asked, i.e. why were these crimes perpetrated in the first place and I include the First World War in the scheme of things here also. I would also imagine instances of UXO explosions in France is minute in comparison with what is happening accross Indo-China today. Let us not forget the empirically true fact that if all post-war American Presidents were tried under the Nurmberg laws they would all have been hanged. That includes Bush!!!! I doubt the Laotian people would get very far with any attempt at legal proceedings particularly since Vietnam was forced to pay over 100 million dollars around 15 years ago just to be reintegrated into the economic system it initially tried to develop outside of. It was given a severe punishment beating for doing so and then forced to pay for it. Do we force rape victims to pay reparations to their attacker. No, we don’t!! Only on an international scale can such miscarriages take place without being reported or talked about. It is unfortunate but true nonetheless. Think before you talk whattheheck, and analyse your country’s grizzly history. I speak of course of its external behaviour. So while we may all agree on the potential for freedom being the greatest in the US, there is no correlation between its internal freedom and its external behaviour. Let us hope and pray a resolution can one day be found to this continuing worldwide problem.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 9, 2006 at 3:13 PM Even if the Laotian people could attempt to get reparation for their human losses, it’s not about dollars, it’s about human decency. The USA has been acting for many years like a spoiled child who thinks he can break things because his rich daddy willl pay for them.
If by freedom you understand the right to say whatever you want, I think that’s not as important as listening to what others have to say and take into consideration their views. Take for instance Irak or Lebanon. Most of the world are against those wars, including a great number of American and Israeli citizens but nobody cares, they continue killing innocent people, destroying infraestructure and getting ready to interfere in the politics of Latin America by hook or by crook.
We are not impressed by the millions of dollars you boast about, or by the Pan where Green bills are cooked (funny, the name Greenspan seems to have represented that). Who controls the money your country prints to spread around the world like in a shopping spree?
No amount of money can buy respect and you are losing it at a fast pace.
Posted by Maria on Aug 9, 2006 at 4:26 PM Well you will surely be aware that everything revolves around money regardless of personal opinion. For instance I disagree inherently with the whole concept and believe it is the mainstay of greed. Pretty basic comments. However it was economics that will be the cause of interference in Latin American Democracy, it was economics that drove the United States into the jungles of South Vietnam. However much we may treat it with personal disdain. Therefore the bottom line in this probably terminal phase of human evolution is the dollar and the euro. It has been the deciding factor in the construction of the Axis of Evil. I am delighted that the US economy has been declining and I hope the rest of the world will follow. The sooner we can develop outside the system of greed then the sooner we can begin talking about human decency with any sense of reality. Diversity of opinion will be the mainstay of this and of course it should be respected, but it must also be informed.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 9, 2006 at 4:48 PM Some questions re this article and replies:
Terry,
1. I didn’t notice any mention of UXO which may have come from the N.Vietnamese or the Vietcong. Are we to assume these do not explode anymore?2. Did it even cross your mind that if everyone knows UXO exists over there, perhaps their government should take responsibility for clearing it? If they allow profiteers to con local citizens to look for it are they not the current cause of any deaths?
3. TonyB,
My reference to WW1: I merely wanted to suggest that the UXO is a long standing problem which others have confronted (without Terry Allen’s finger pointing — exclusively at ourselves).
The car crash victims comment was just a bit of sarcasm. The left in this country always likes to point to numbers of people killed by various means when it suits their goal. Since most of them are also drivers, they ignore one of the single biggest causes of accidental death over here.I notice that you are writing from Italy. I seem to remember a big welcome for the US troops when the Nazis and Italian fascists were driven out. I have heard no UXO complaints from there.
About your comments:
“ I am delighted that the US economy has been declining and I hope the rest of the world will follow.”Be careful what you wish for — this may happen sooner than you think. I hope you are financially independent. Stupid US consumers have been spending beyond their means for years — which has kept a lot of people employed over producing goods worldwide.
“The sooner we can develop outside the system of greed then the sooner we can begin talking about human decency with any sense of reality.”Can you give me an example of a people, a country, which is or has ever been free from greed for any extended time? In my opinion this is a universal and timeless problem which has been at the root of most of the world’s problems.
Greed for money, power, and fame (they go together) will likely always be with us. However, within limits the desire for wealth has benefited mankind through scientific discoveries, inventions, etc. I’m afraid there will never be enough people motivated simply out of altruism.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 10, 2006 at 7:28 AM Thank you for the reply. Yes I can give you examples of countries that, or at least large parts of countries that have been ostensibly free from greed at least in a more communal sense. I cannot comment on individuals. I would suggest you look at the Barcelona Anarchists of the Spanish Republic who were simply crushed by Franco’s fascists. I am not writing from Italy, it is an Irish flag (green white and orange, they are similar). The Israeli Kibuzzin might be considered another example, I am not sure how true it is today but certainly before they were quite happy not to driven by greed. The Paris Commune might be another example although it was unfortuantely shortlived. There is the potential for these things to extend over a long time. Greed for me at least appears to be a product of Capitalist society rather than an inherently human trait. What can we expect from a society when the highest things one can aspire to are a plasma screen TV and Cadillac Escalades. I believe altruism is an innate human feature, the denegrations from this path I would consider also to be a social product. There is a great potential for change within each and every human being. Once we develop beyond means of greed (and it is coming quite soon I would imagine since the oil is runing out) then we can hopefully begin to explore a spiritual change that will facilitate and also contribute to a better sociey for all. I am afraid I dont understand how greed and desire for wealth has benefitted us scientifically, not in any way at least that could not have been reached through some other means. I dont believe that greed is a timeless problem in fact from my own study in archaeology I believe that prehistoric groups were a great deal more democratic and egalitarian than anything to be seen today. Things are complex I will never deny that, but try looking at the nature of the East Timorese peoples and their society before Gerry Ford, Jimmy Carter and Henry Kissinger took it upon themselves to facilitate economically , militarily and diplomatically the genocide of one third the population of that country. Again this was a case of a small nation with natural resources in abundance threatening to develop outside of the economic model sent down from on high i.e. Washington. I think you will find that they were a great deal more egalitarian, more democratic with a lot more sharing of wealth(there may be a major UXO problem there now also). I enjoy sharing also, I dont allow myself to be phased by possessions and while I may have many material things I would have no problem giving them all up for a slice of a slightly better world. I also believe that there is a deeper reason for the decline of the US economy than merely consumerism. Taking for example Iraq’s change from oil trading from dollars to euros in 2001 (Axis of Evil Member No.1), Iran quickly followed suit changing from dollars to euro denominated accounts (Axis of Evil Memer No. 2) and North Korea’s decison to do all of their commodities trading in euoros from now on (Axis of Evil Memeber No. 3). The Federal Reserve no longer has its licence to print money, as countries now actually have a choice not to do their oil trading in dollars. Excuse the length of this “comment”, I would enjoy discussing some of these things in more depth unfortunately this is the only forum I have open to talk with you.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 10, 2006 at 10:54 AM Tony B, thank you for your wise comments. I agree with you entirely. I am sure us, humans, have many capabilities the capitalistic system is eager to crush because they are not good for profits. The Spanish Anarchists, the Paris Commune and the Isrel kibbutzs of the early days are very valuable examples of how the prevailing system has exerted pressure on any group of people trying to create a better world.
I think greed is like a disease in expansion nurtured by the models imposed upon us but not man’s true essence, and that’s what keeps me going, despite old age. Glad there are many like you to keep the torch alive.
Posted by Maria on Aug 10, 2006 at 11:44 AM Thakn you very much Maria. I am sure your “old age” should not be so much of an impediment to you. I am only 20, I still have to enter the workforce and when I do I am afraid I cannot promise that I will continue with my efforts.As is all too obvious work is the main system of control. I hope I can continue. Unfortunately, these capabilities are being crushed on a daily basis. Unlike Franco they no longer need tanks and guns to suppress us, they have television and public relations to do that for them. I of course speak of Western countries, people whose opinions matter. Of course too often violence is their answer. That is why unfortunately one can feel quite alone and isolated, I find it refreshing to have people with a similar emotion about our unfortunate phase of evolution.It can feel as if progress is being reversed in these days. Upon hearing of the ongoing atrocities a feeling of helplessness can on occasion overwhelm. It is quite disturbing to see so much human potential wasted on the trivialities. Anyway thank you for your kind and encouraging remarks. I will try to keep that torch going as much as I can. Eduaction is the best weapon and you are never too old to learn or inform. Thanks again. I hope we can uncover the true human essence sooner rather than later.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 10, 2006 at 12:21 PM TonyB, Maria,
Sorry about the flag confusion. It is a bit too small to easily distinguish red from orange. (At first I thought it was a French flag which would have been off on two colors — the white was a sure thing to these old eyes.)
Actually I think you, Maria and in are in agreement on some of the very basics here. I have seen greed on the increase not only here, but globally I believe. Partly due to the push of globalization which although very much involving our US business leaders and their influence on politicians, has expanded in tandem with the internationalizing of corporations.
The first company to my knowledge to have no national headquarters was Visa the credit card issuer. With the lack of any national loyalty there was no national labor organization to be able to exert any pressure on a corporation’s managers.
My basic disagreement on is in regard to the nature of greed itself. You write in terms of collective greed and attach it to capitalism. I believe it is an individual failing which seeks like minded people working together for their own purposes.
When I started my illustration and graphic design business over forty years ago, most of my customers were locally owned manufacturing companies. Some were owned and operated by first generation immigrants and others by second or third generation family members. As they grew and went public (issuing stock to raise capital for expansion or equipment upgrades) they gradually shifted to the point where the employees and customers were no longer the main focus — the shareholders were. This was the beginning of a downward spiral.
I mentioned, “....within limits the desire for wealth has benefited mankind through scientific discoveries, inventions, etc.” I meant that those people who started these businesses i had worked for came to the US to build a better life for their families. They did it by working many hours a day and reinvesting the profits until they successfully had a viable enterprise. they provided not only for their own families but also created employment for hundreds or even thousands of people.
Many of them establish organizations for the benefit of the public at large. Their charitable contributions and foundations are still available long after they have died. They funded research programs, scholarships, schools and universities which now provide scientific research. This is capitalism at its best.
It is my opinion that without the opportunity to benefit personally there would have been far less progress for all mankind.
I don’t know enough about anyone involved in the Spanish Civil War era or the Paris Commune to sensibly comment, but Franco’s greed for power must have been an element in the outcome. In Soviet communism Stalin not only matched Franco, but most of the top party members were as greedy as even the most disgusting corporate glutton.
There were greedy people in Biblical times — check out the Ten Commandments. Desire for more is what motivated exploration of the “new world” when Isabella sent Columbus on his way. The same was true of the many who went later — to South America, the West Indies and the Far East.
Greed has a long track record and I expect it will always need a counter force to place it in check.
Maria,
Where are you? I absolutely cannot make out what country your flag represents. Are there blue stripes at the top and bottom or is that just the black outline which all of these flags have?
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 10, 2006 at 2:24 PM Yes I would also like to know where Maria is also!! haha
It appears we do agree on some of the fundamenals but I must always feel that greed is a product of society. We are assuming here that history is following some sort of cyclical pattern here. We must instead assume that these are the times to be alive. The very fact we are here discussing such things means that there is something telling us that things are not right. I must say that there would be more than a mere system of restriction stopping me from taking something that did not belong to me, likewise in terms of more heinous acts like murder or rape. These must be products of a social system. Taking for example the fact that 3/4 serial killers are from the US, no offense to the US but there must be some defining factor in an American background that greater inclines you towars such acts.
Of course we will probably never fully reign greed in but I must say that we can achieve so much more. I think a civic spirit can override such inhibiting factors of people’s souls such as greed. They may always exist in some form.
Consider a newborn child as the blank slate, with innate cncepts of right and wrong. If the child is taught that it can have what it want by a winner takes all philosophy it will obviously have ill knock on effects for the future. Taking for example the amazing succes of Deweyite schools where competition was non existent, great things can be achieved under the right conditions.
Unfortunately as you rightly point out Corporations, the Corporate Lobby and Governentshave become virtually indistinguishable from one another. In fact I feel one of the most abhorrent laws in America is the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.A fanatstic principle, initially it was passed to give black people equal rights. However at this time corporations were generally small and only chartered to carry out specific functions.Corporate lawyers ensured that corporations were written into this law and they now have rights akin to that of a human being. Therefore a corporation maybe fined billions of dollars but no one person can be held responsible. As you say as corporations have become international powers in their own right (their profits sometimes exceeding poorer countries GDP) their power has spiralled out of control. We must now work to narrow these powers that these forces wield over our lives. I speak not merely of corporations but of all these invisible and mostly unnecessary forces such as government restriction, police forces. While in certain instances they are certainly required their power has gone beyond what was originally intended.
Unfortunately there are few examples of Capitalism at its best anymore. I think it is time for a change. I am a libertarian socialist so I dont think there can be much good to come from capitalism at all. I am afraid the Rags to Riches American Dream of Upward Mobility has been a construct of somebody’s imagination and I believe the figures bare that out.
Great thing should be expected of these people who govern our lives, however America consistently ranks last in infant mortality and healthcare statistics of the top 20 industrialised nations of the world.
There is a bigger picture to be seen, one of progress and one of change. Real change not the type of change these politicians speak of. They make the process sound so esoteric and mystical that one feels that to try and interefere would be a mistake. However to not get involved now would be the mistake. Mistrust of world governments is constantly on the increase, let us hope when it changes it is for the better and not just a reversion to older more antiquated forms of emotional and physical exploitation.
I hope you will excuse the length of these responses. I cannot stop once I get started. I dont know how ew got to this point from UXO, haha
Anyway thanks for listening.
Look forward to the responses.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 10, 2006 at 3:03 PM TonyB,
I would agree with you regarding individuals born as a blank slate, but do not believe they have an innate sense of right and wrong. A child must be taught right from wrong and primarily by the parents, in my opinion. I would also disagree with Hilary Clinton’s contention that, “It takes a village” to rear a child. This only becomes true if the parents abdicate their responsibility. In fact, I believe with some of the examples of “right and wrong” which have become acceptable by society both here and in Europe I would say it takes the parents to counter act the “village.
Society may provide laws for prevention (and punishment) of crimes such as murder and rape as well as lesser crimes, but ethical restraints should come early in life before the child even knows their are societal restrictions.
I don’t know where you got the statistics for serial killers and wonder if they are adjusted per capita and using equal data for comparison. Would you include crimes such as the genocide in African countries as serial killings.
Your example: “Taking for example the amazing success of Deweyite schools where competition was non existent, great things can be achieved under the right conditions.”I am not familiar with Deweyite schools, per se, but believe removing competition can be counter-productive. Life in the real world is inherently competitive and not to prepare for it is to live in a dream from which same day he will awaken and not be able to cope.
I don’t follow your comments about the 14th Amendment. Individuals within corporations can and are held responsible and prosecuted as most recently evidenced by the conviction of Ken Lay of Enron.
“I am afraid the Rags to Riches American Dream of Upward Mobility has been a construct of somebody’s imagination and I believe the figures bare that out.”
Granted, it has become more difficult in recent years due to globalization and the uneven competition it has brought. US corporations can now escape decades of valuable, hard earned regulations which protected workers and customers in the USA. Things like child labor laws, racial discrimination, minimum wages, maximum number of work hours, environmental protections — and others.
My family’s experience is typical on my generation and earlier. My mother’s family came here before we rebelled against the King of England (early Scots-Irish immigration in 1700s). My father’s father came here (1900) from Sweden where they had been farmers, but owned no land and never would be able to. He and his three brothers all worked as coal miners. Eventually they all owned their own land and homes and raised large families.
My father had a good public school education and became a supervisor in a manufacturing company.
I had some college and owned my own business. One son became an artist and designer like I was. The other finished college with a degree in statistics.
I would not be declared “rich”, but ours is a typical “rags to riches” story if the riches is compared to three generations back.
My wife’s story is similar. Her mother born here and her father came here from Sweden (1922) all alone and speaking no English at the age of 19. He became a machinist, owned his home and enjoyed his life as an American. For most of us life here is not like the super happy movies of the fifties, but neither is it like the degradation Hollywood puts out today. (except possibly in Hollywood).Statistics will talk about thousands who have no health insurance, but hospitals by law must treat people regardless. My wife has been associated with a hospital here for nearly 30 years. The cost is passed on to the rest of us in our bills (about a 30 % increase).
I believe the internet and satellite TV are responsible for increasing anxieties and many false impressions. People are reacting to stories which have little or no verification. News media rush to be first rather than wait to correct.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 11, 2006 at 2:15 PM TonyB, Whattheheck, you both flatter me by wanting to know where I live. I am Argentine, but have been living in Costa Rica for the last 6 years after retirement. I chose Costa Rica because it has no army and because I wanted to enjoy nature at its best, although things are changing now with all the “progress” which sacrifices trees to build more malls. My ancestors were French, Spanish and French Basques. They worked very hard and so have I but money matters were not so important in those days and I was encouraged to read a lot, to open my mind, to be compassionate rather than greedy, to pursue knowledge rather than property.
I would suggest you to try something: talk to any unknown child in the street under 2 years old, smile at him or her, if he is eating something show him you would like to try it, and 9 out of 10 will stretch their hand and offer you a bite, which would prove human beings are not naturally selfish. A few years later, watching their parents’ attitudes toward material possessions and being pressed at schools to be competitive will thwart their natural inclination to generosity. I think cooperation, teaching a child how to think, not what to think or believe in, is superior by far to competition.
That’s all for now.
Posted by Maria on Aug 11, 2006 at 5:50 PM Maria,
Children:
I expect you are absolutely correct — many children would share like that where we live. But that is too simple a test, I believe.We are assuming the child is not starving as in Ethiopia. It does not take long at any age for the survival instinct to surface in each of us. It would take a good deal of fortitude to put someone you don’t know ahead of yourself in extreme conditions.
Another factor in your example is a small child has no concept of responsibility (the parents have a responsibility for that one and possibly others). The child has no thought that in the future (even later that day) he may not have ANY food.
In fairness to the theory of innate goodness we must consider less than ideal circumstances. I expect both environment and social training are much involved.
I agree teaching one how to think is very important. I once told a good friend that I repeatedly told my two sons to question everything. He replied, “Well, that would mean they should not obey you.”
I said, “No, they should question, not disobey. However, I want them to question what I say as well and we can talk about it. I could be mistaken or misinformed.”
Ours is a family of readers. (We often joke that before a book comes in a book must leave our house.) One son leans toward HOW questions (the statistician), the other always asked WHY questions (the artist). Their reading material bears this out even in the forties.
------------------------The best part of the internet is being able to communicate with individuals anywhere! If more of us did I believe we would have far less trouble between people both nationally and globally. Prejudice seeks generalization not the people you know as persons.
Unfortunately with so much news available from some many instant sources, news reports are often generalizations and support our prejudices.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 12, 2006 at 7:36 AM After reading the reviews of the Griffin book I have a couple of very basic questions I would like to ask him.
Since he claims the US is in control of people who will stop at nothing to accomplish their ends:
1. Why weren’t the people he claims to have interviewed to get his damning evidence simply killed to prevent such testimony?
2. Since he has already published an earlier book with similar allegations, why haven’t they eliminated him.
One would think these to be elemental solutions requiring far less planning and technical expertise. A single call to a hit man would have saved a lot of trouble and controversy.
But then, he is a Presbyterian and so quite possibly a staunch Calvinist who believes in predestination. If so, why bother to try to change the inevitable?
Could it be for the money? Naaah, probably just his messiah complex.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 12, 2006 at 1:50 PM The issue of UXO in Laos has caused some controversy and diverged our views so greatly that we could hardly agree on anything. It is just because we saw and experienced things at different time, at different place, and even at different generation. It might not be easy to digest an issue. The following info may give some clearer picture of the UXO in Laos. Between 1964-1973, more than 580,000 bombing miissions were carried out, dropping more than 2 million tonnes of bombs on Laos, from south to north. The Lao popolation at that time was less than 3 million. To be precise, The Lao received about 0.67 tonnes of bombs per head. About 30 percent failed to explode. Today the population stands at 5.6 million, over 80 percent of them is engaged in subsistance farming and non-timber product collecting activities in rural remote areas. The possibility of stepping on UXO is high. Once it takes place, it is about loss of life. Since the end of the war in 1975, more than 10,000 people died of explosion. One of the causes is collecting the scraps of bombs to sell. Those unexploded are broken into pieces by collectors. There are not many lucky surviving from dismantling the bombs but they have no other choices.
Although clearing those bombs is the government’s responsibility, we are talking about the least develped country whose people’s average annual income per captia is just about a few hundreds dollars. It is hard for the government if without donors’ funding. Clearing bombs needs great resources (skilled people, technology, etc.) The country bombing Laos has done little to help remove those bombs. But it is its allies like Australian, Japan, Canada, Luxemboug, others are the ones pouring those resources instead. Where’s human decency the doer has? The US staged wars in Indochina for one reason. That is it feared of the spread of Communism over the Southeast Asia, athough Tony was right, maybe, that it was economics-driven.
Let us wish that the wars in Iraq, Lebenon, Palestine, and the rest on this planet are finished very soon to avoid the loss of life, suffering, and displacement of the innocent people.
Posted by isaki on Aug 13, 2006 at 3:17 AM Isaki,
Your description of the UXO problem in Laos is immense, frightening, and disheartening. Until this article I had never heard or read any mention of it. I was familiar with the still surfacing explosives in France from an article in The National Geographic magazine several years ago.
I knew a man who was involved with bomb disposal after WW2 in Europe. It is a highly skilled and dangerous process using a variety of methods depending upon the type of ordinance involved. He lived to tell about it and died an old man.
Where did you get your information? What about Vietnam and Cambodia? They must have a similar problem and if so, how are they dealing with it? I do read a lot, especially history and current events, so if I am unfamiliar with the issue I assume very few people over here are.
As for peace — we can hope for it, but history shows it is unlikely to ever last for long. I am one of the few who visit this site who believes we are actually in a world war. The radical few Muslim suicide bombers can do immense damage with relatively little expense for equipment. They have made threats which are imminent to Israel and continuing to the rest of us.
This I firmly believe.
At my age it makes little difference to me personally, but I am concerned for my family, my friends, my country and the future of our world.
When people or a nation become frustrated and desperate they are apt to adopt extreme measures. The Japanese Kamikaze pilots of WW2 only attacked military targets, but the only way to stop them was to kill them. I think it was their attitude of total dedication which convinced the US to use the atomic bombs rather than risk a huge loss of our forces by invading a nation so dedicated (Japan).
If Iran’s suicide-trained force used even the smallest of nuclear devices, Israel or the US may follow with the same. Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) kept the USA and the Soviet Union from using them for the past 60 years. for a person who seeks martyrdom there is no deterrent.
I read an article yesterday which posed questions regarding diverse global opinions on the way nations should deal with international conflicts. You may be interested.
It has been interesting and informative to converse with you. Thank you.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/580uttca.asp
The Fantasy World of International Law
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 13, 2006 at 6:49 AM whattheheck,
You can visit www.undplao.com. More info on Lao UXO is there. For the UXO history in Laos, read the book, titled “Shadow War: The Cia’s Secret War in Laos, by Kenneth Conboy. There are quite a number of books written about “the Secret War in Laos”.
I don’t know the UXO problem in Vietnam and Cambodia. I guess they might face the similar problem. For Cambodia, after the US left, the rebel Communist forces, the Khmer Rouge, led by Pot Pol, took over the country. Between 1975-1979, about 1.7 million people are believed to have been killed under Pol Pot. Countless mines had been plotted killing a large number of people. The united nations and international donors are helping the government to remove mines. Similar to Laos.
For the middle east wars, please watch this video clip http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html. just to see the different views, a lot of people in the world might have missed the history of the middle east conflicts.
Posted by isaki on Aug 13, 2006 at 11:08 AM I can confirm that these are also major problems in Cambodia and Vietnam. Another major problem still faced by both countries is the fact that there was also used in abundance chemical defoliants such as Agent Orange. The calculated use of these products by US forces throughout Indochina has also meant that much of the land has been left barren even to this day. Birth defects from this are also a very prevalent problem and also continue to this day.
Even now Israel are using cluster munitions against Lebanon and in Palestine, which has been strongly spoken against by Human Rights Watch. I have not read the book Isaki refers to but I would personally recommend for information on the US war throughout Indochina and throughout the world two volumes of the one book by Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman;
Political Economy of Human Rights: Volume 1 The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism
and
Political Economy of Human Rights: Volume 2 Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology.
Both truly shocking. We must also realise that to the “vistors” go the spoils and that vast swathes of this history has been re-written and manufactured to ensure the truth is fully suppressed. I am afraid we diverged majorly from the initial topic of this conversation as Isaki rightly pointed out. Regardless of personal belief we must realise that these are genuine issues and are happening throughout the world. It is thoroughly enjoyable to give the lesser known aspectsand uglier sides of history that we are not suppoesd to hear, however grotesque and disgusting the facts may be they are there to be read if you have the energy to look for them.
Interestingly since you mention World War 2 I would like to point out another aspect of this era that is little alked about. This is IBM’s facilitation of the holocaust. They were the ones who supplied Nazi Germany with the punch card system that allowed them to reach such startling numbers in the holocaust allowing them to catalogue each Jew individually with IBM leased (not sold) Hollerith technology. The leasing of the technology because each month an IBM engineer had to go and service these machines many of which were found on site in places like Aushwitz and Dachau. In fact it was not simply IBM. The most abhorrent feature of this is IBM’s removal of the profits after the war was over. In fact during the depression foreign investment went down everywhere in Europe except for one place; Nazi Germany where US investment went up 48.5 per cent from Hitler’s assumption of power up to 1940 including companies like IBM, Ford, ITT, International Harvester and so on. The simple reason for this is becaue Nazi Germany could provide a world still free of Trade Unions where there would be a “favourable investment climate”.
This is why the United States and others found themselves in the jungles of South Vietnam and using revolutionary counter terror in South America and Asia creating a culture of terrorism where populations are simply beaten into line to ensure favourable economic climates for the people our governments really serve.
Also on your comment about simply assassinating dissenting voices whattheheck, I have not heard of the Griffin book you refer to but I will attempt to make an educated guess. American government and big business will forever have their media monopoly. It is possible to draw unnecessary attention by simply murdering dissenters. However the media can simply use character assassination as they have tried unsuccessfully to do with Noam Chomsky for the past forty years.
There is so much unknown history that people will never be aware of. Work as I have said is the main system of control. Work, as we know it today, was called for centuries wage slavery. If you return from work one evening you do not begin research projects on UXO or US investment history or any other grotesque feature of history.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 13, 2006 at 3:34 PM Isaki,
I’ll check on the Shadow War. I often go to amazon.com and read the reviews, both the professionals and the individual reviews. So much to read — so little time.
Whoa TonyB,
If Noam Chomsky is your source I would be very skeptical of the commentary. This guy is a real nut case, IMO. I cannot accept Nazi Germany allowing a technician from IBM to service their machines at Auschwitz — that is TOO much to swallow!
I am aware of US investment up until Hitler declare war on us by major companies, so IBM could well have sold them equipment. Such major known individuals as Joseph Kennedy (JFK’s father who made his fortune in illegal liquor and prostitution). Also Lindbergh who was so highly impressed by their Luft Waffe and a total isolationist.
Nazi Germany rose to power due to the massive military build up. They had been so beaten down economically by the WW1 victors that their marks were terribly inflated and prices were out of sight. Hitler took advantage of the situation and using every means he could think of created jobs, financial security and restored their national pride.
As usual international traders also moved in to grab as much as they could — greed is nothing new. Our economy didn’t begin to rise out of the depression until war production put nearly everyone to work including women who until that time did not work in factories.
As a matter of fact married women were not allowed too work until the war not only made it acceptable but necessary. My mother was a teacher in a public school, but when she and my father got married she had to quit. My mother-in-law started to work in a factory just before the war, but when they found out she was married she was fired. Two years later they were telling women it was their duty to fill in for the men who went to war.
Has Human Rights Watch ever spoken out regarding the rights of Jews. I haven’t read any of their articles for about six months, but would suggest you read some other points of view as well. I have found them to be very one sided in their reporting.
I’m not sure where you are referring to in this comment.
“There is so much unknown history that people will never be aware of. Work as I have said is the main system of control. Work, as we know it today, was called for centuries wage slavery. If you return from work one evening you do not begin research projects on UXO or US investment history or any other grotesque feature of history.”
History is being constantly rewritten or at least attempts are made to do so. After that sentence you lost me.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 13, 2006 at 4:14 PM I will finish with this. Chomsky’s popularity is backed up by his hard cold fact. He has been writing for forty years and any factual error has been corrected by himself. If you consider him “ a real nut” then I just cannot respond. His clarity of thought and exposition cannot be faulted. If you consider him so then I must merely say you have not investigated his statements or his ideas. The New York Times said about him he is “arguably the most important intellectual alive”. You will see this on every book he has written, however as he himself pointed out this was a publishers blurb as the article goes on to say if thisd is so how can he say such terrible things about US Foreign Policy. He then further said if it was not for the second lne he would begin to think he was doing something wrong. He writes about these things because we need to be responsible for the predictable consequences of our own actions primarily. If it is your government supplying weapons to maim and kill in a war that has bewen described by Kofi Annan as illegal, in Palestine, in Lebanon, in Iraq and all over the world.
I dont know what rights of the Jews are being contravened???
IBM have denied this but if you look into this I am sure you will see that IBM’s main business was not seeling technology, it was leasing technology. Take also for example the fact that Sony/EMI’s main business is not the music industry it is weapons development.
History has been rweritten. Taking as just one example in my own country; our government recently had a military parade to remeber the 1916 Rising against British imperialism. This was hilarious for me as my governments policies economic and foreign are a total betrayal of what was fought for in 1916. This was just a minor domestic example of the manufacture of history to suit a poltical end. Our government always finds a way to stir up irrational feelings of national pride and nationalistic jingoism at election time. Conveniently!!!!
IBM maintenance of the machines is historical fact. The only major book written on this topic is by a man called Edwin Black. It is very meticulous. IBM of course denied it and everybody was satisfied after that, no need for any further investigation despite the fact that IBM were the target if the allegations. Once they deny it people are satisfied.
I think you drastically underestimate the reach of the people who shape public thought and public action. Media and intelligentsia subservience to state power is one of the best supported conclusions in the social sciences. I dont know who told you Chomsky is a real nut but I would suggest you try pick up one of his books and see if his documentation is inconsistent. 90 per cent of his sources are Human Rights reports, Church Group reports, AI reports and official policy documents.
Two examples and then I will leave you in peace (haha)
FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) commissioned a study of the political talkshow Nightline. They surveyed 40 months of Nightline (865 shows). Of 1530 US guests:
92% were white
89% were male
80% were Professionals, Government Officials or Corporate Representatives.Figures in 1992:
In the United States there are:
7 major movie studios
1,800 Daily Newspapers
11,000 Magazines
11,000 Radios Stations
2,000 TV Stations
2,500 Book Publishers23 Corporations own over 50 per cent of the business in EACH medium, in some cases they retain a virtual monopoly.
This constitutes a ridiculously narrow “spectrum of opinion”. What kind of view would you reasonably expect to come out of these media???
Anyway those are the figures, reach your own conclusion.
This restriction of chracters is annoying. My email address is barrettanthony@hotmail.com if you would like to discuss these things in further detail. It is a secondary email address of mine so I dont mind telling it to you here. If you email me I can give you my primary one.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 13, 2006 at 5:12 PM TonyB,
The problem with writers like Chomsky is there is always some part of their argument which the reader can relate to as truth. Then, just as when we read something which we see as blatantly false, we tend to accept or reject the whole premise.
If he were to slip in an example involving little green men from Mars, we would dump it all. The difficulty comes when ideas are at least plausible and are often repeated. With the advent of the internet this problem is multiplied beyond simple verification since we seldom know the original source or the underlying motive.
While investment surely was an aspect US involvement in Vietnam was slow to evolve and far more complex. Some just plain stupid decisions and assumptions were made by the US and they were followed by a covering of lies. Politicians see admission of a mistake as the kiss of death.
The expansionist policies of the Soviet Communists we saw in Europe gave plausibility to the “Communist Threat” as a global plan. This precipitated partnering with some of the worst people available.
The rejection of Ho Chi Min by the West drove him toward the Soviets. It was of mutual distrust between the two largest military powers (the US and Soviet Union) which led each to seek surrogate nations to oppose their opponent.
Vietnam under Diem became one of ours. It became our longest war and most tangled web of political maneuvering in our history.
Several years ago I read “The March of Folly”, by Barbara Tuchmann which outlines several of the most idiotic events mankind has ever brought about. There is a very good explanation of our Vietnam debacle.
There are always many unintended consequences which in hindsight seem like they should have been avoided. Imagination is to often in short supply.
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I know it is widely believed the media is a tool of our government. At times I suppose it is so. I’m sure there are many within government who wish it were more so. Few are more critical of our media than I am.
However, as Abraham Lincoln once said, “You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”I think this is true with the media as well.
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I just saw your posing of Aug 13, 2006 at 5:12 PM and have only scanned it so far.“I dont know what rights of the Jews are being contravened???”
Aren’t both Israel and Lebanon (or at least their “political party” Hezbollah) assaulting each other? Do you accept the allegation that Iran and others want the country of Israel erased? If someone believes he is marked for death does he have an innate right to self defense? (Personally, I think its creation post WW2 was a major mistake, but that is not the immediate issue.)
I have not read any of Chomsky’s books. I have read a lot of his commentaries and thus my above comments. As for your other references:Ask yourself how objective you are in choosing what to believe.
Is Kofi Annan a reliable authority on what is legal? Think Oil for Food Program.
Why do you site The New York Times after saying the media is US government controlled?
Are you predisposed to agree with Chomsky’s anti-US ideas? Just because Vietnam was bad policy is all US policy bad?
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We used to say history is written by the victor. Now I wonder if it isn’t being re-written by anyone who wants to sell books.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 14, 2006 at 7:24 AM I must reply by saying Chomsky’s ideas are pro-US. His ideas depend on a recognition that your government and mine do not serve our interests, his hopes are pinned on the citizenry of the US. To simply disregard him with ad hominem tactics such as calling him a nutcase do no justice to anybody. I would implore you to give him a chance and see if inconsistencies are there. I do not know what parts of Chomsky’s arguments have turned you away from him so fervently, his books are for not just the head but the heart. Some deceny is required from us all to realise our full potential as human beings. You cannot be proud of your government just as I am not proud of mine. I am proud of my country and its history. He has constantly reiterated the fact that the US has the most potential for change. On the comment of selling books, Chomsky himself already had a very comfortable life through his groundbreaking work in linguistics. His turn to dissent in 1964 was a very conscious one for him indeed. Of course I find it very difficult to remain objective given the fact that I have realised so many uncomfortable truths about our society in my studies in US foreign diplomacy and even my studies in archaeology.
Let us also not forget that there was a fully accepted resolution to the situation in Vietnam in the form of the 1954 Geneva Accords which if adherred to by the US would have meant that there would have been no need for the decimation of the rural peasants of Indochina, or has that been removed also?? As Orwell wrote and you rightly point out “He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past”
US bad policy does not begin or end with Vietnam or Indochina, it has been repeated throughout the Middle East and Central America as well as Asia and continues today. I am afraid that the idea that policy is inherently altruistic and it was simply enacted poorly is too much to swallow. There is constantly a rise in domestic repression where the US gets involved. There is a bigger picture of which Vietnam was a part, but it has been enacted throughout the US spheres of influence. The Communist myth was simply one of convenience for the US. The bombardment and subsequent invasion of South Vietnam had to be accompanied by the bombing of the North to maintain the myth that there was some Communist behemoth to be opposed. I dont think the Communist threat was ever perceived seriously by any serious policy planner. I feel this is borne out by the fact that US military budget increased massively even after the fall of the “evil empire”. It is true that the Soviets carved up Eastern Europe, but there is vast swathes of the world where the US was doing the same. I ostensibly agree with what honest Abe had to say but in the majority sense they have fooled the people. However I think this is changing somewhat. I find opinion polls from your country bare this out also. Few people believe that your govenment is taking you anywhere meaningful, exploring human potential and the limits of democracy and cooperation. The impoverished people of your nation dont vote, those who have slipped through the cracks of your system hve been totally disenfranchised from the democratic process and it is a shame.It is true Israel is under threat from Iran and other Arab nations. However there is a reason for this. “Why do they hate us???”. A question so frequently asked but rarely ever answered. In an email I recently wrote to Kofi Annan I pointed out that perhaps these countries could have been much more easily appeased if they had reamined secular democracies as Iran was in 1953. The fact is that the US has been providing crucial strategic military, diplomatic and economic aid to continue bombarding Arab nations. I agree no more with somebody like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as I do with George Bush. However as a wetsern observer I feel I can impact more by commetning on western policy than on Islamic fundamenatalism. Of course nobody wants to see these radicals in power in Iran or Palestine but I must also say the people of these countries have been given little option. The forces of secular Arab nationalism and radical Islam will always be united given the fact that the US refuses and has refused for over thirty years to deal in terms of Arab-Jewish bi-nationalism and cooperation. This is yet another truth about this conflict that has totally been whitewashed by media “analysis”. Look at media coverage of Saddam Hussein bfeore he truned against the US. Let us not forget it was your own CIA who turned a generation of Afghanis into trained killers, who so effectively used that training on September 11th. And when Septenber 11th comes aorund again dont just remeber 2001, remember 1973 also. Just to elaborate that is when your nation so altruistically overthrew democratically elected Salavdor Allende in Chile in preference for mass murderer August Pinochet. Your country has little reagrd for democracy. I think it is time we took it back.
I also cannot see where I have cited the New York Times???
I am not saying the media is government controlled either. It is not like the Soviet Union things are done much more subtly in the United States. There is a facade of diversity of opinion given while the awful truth slowly slips away to be lost in some obscure footnote, there to be found if you look but so few people will look.
I am also afraid I have only heard mainstream coverage about the Oil for food programme so I will not comment, I have to investigate for myself. However Kofi Annan is still in his position so I will assume they have dug up all of the dirt yet. I would not consider him an authority on anything really but I think under Nurmberg conditions neither Bush nor Blair would last very long. To see them hang from the neck would for me be as justifiable as seeing Eichmann or Goebbels doing the same. (Although I dont believe in capital punishment)
Posted by TonyB on Aug 14, 2006 at 7:54 AM TonyB,
I find it instructive how our communication (or miscommunication) may be a microcosm of all forms of global news and opinion.
You said, “I also cannot see where I have cited the New York Times???”
From: Posted by TonyB on Aug 13, 2006 at 5:12 PM —
The New York Times said about him he is “arguably the most important intellectual alive”.You said, “I must reply by saying Chomsky’s ideas are pro-US. His ideas depend on a recognition that your government and mine do not serve our interests, his hopes are pinned on the citizenry of the US.”
I would change that to. “Chomsky’s ideas are his opinion of what is good for the US. His ideas require acceptance that our government’s do not serve our interests. I would say our governments do ALWAYS not serve our best interests.
You said, “I would implore you to give him a chance and see if inconsistencies are there.”
I would say from my reading he IS consistent, but consistency is not the same as truth or accuracy. He writes from his perceptions just as you and I are doing.
You said, “As Orwell wrote and you rightly point out “He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past”
I am familiar with this quote and have no doubt used it at times, but not in this discussion.You said,“I am afraid that the idea that policy is inherently altruistic and it was simply enacted poorly is too much to swallow.”
I would not say that US policy in the Middle East or Central America (or anywhere else) is “altruistic” In fact I doubt very much of anyone’s policy is altruist. For that matter I think it is safe to say nearly all news, national policy, or individual comment is seldom without bias, ulterior motive or some sort of an agenda — political, economic, religious…
I’m reasonably sure the idea of “democratizing Iraq” is loaded with some of each of the above. I do believe the Iraq post combat phase is very badly handled.
Note: Perhaps the aid given during times of crisis such as the Tsunami could qualify as altruism. I would say for certain that the individual contributions were. Again with the Katrina huricane yes for the individuals’ gifts, but not the federal and state governmental aid — that is political, I believe.
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Any misinterpretations or misquotes between us are insignificant for the well being of the world, but I wonder how many monumental decisions throughout history have been based on similar discrepancies and/or misinterpretations..
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I do believe the communist threat was much more than a myth(This is a popular current revision.)To Dahlia Grebilunis, a girl in my high school class who fled Hungary during the 1956 uprising this would be insulting. To me the Cuban Missile Crisis was very real. To the people behind the Berlin Wall it was more than a myth. (My reserve unit was on 24 hour call for a year due to that one. It gets real in a hurry.) To the veterans I know personaly, such as Sgt. Graham Cockfield, who spent a year in a Chinese prison camp, it is still very real.
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Don’t be too quick to accept the news about us in the US at face value. Question sources’ motives.
• Impoverished people don’t vote. Says who?
• The military strength was cut by one-third under Clinton to make his economy look better.
• When Eastern Europe was behind the Iron Curtain where were these “vast swaths of the world” where the US was doing the same?
• Opinion polls are useless unless you know how the questions were phrased.You said, “Your country has little regard for democracy. I think it is time we took it back.”
On what do you base this opinion? Take back what? What are you proposing?
Kofi Annan is still in his position mainly because there is no way to effectively remove him or to prosecute him. The UN has NO POWER except what members volunteer to provide. UN Resolutions are next to nothing. Saddam went on exploiting Oil for Food with UN leadership as partners.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 14, 2006 at 2:25 PM All of the evidence you are putting forward to me is totally anecdotal. I am not aware of these people’s existence so this constitutes no real research whatsoever. I never denied that the Communitsts suprressed people in Eastern Europe, my own girlfriend is from Poland and grew up in that era. What I was saying, if you were listening, was their nuclear capability and their influenece on smaller countries around the world was a convenient excuse for Western governments to decimate indigenous national liberation struggles to create favourable economic climates for large corporations. I dont think you should enjoy paying a subsidy with your taxes etc. to high-technology industry and weapons manufacturers to facilitate your countries frankly grotesque actions throughout the world. Remember there is no correlation between America’s internal freedom and its external behaviour. The vast swathes of the world where your country did the same: death squads in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bolivia, Argentina, Paraguay, El Salvador,East Timor, Indonesia, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Sierra Leone, Angola, Burundi, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Brazil, Pakistan, electoral fraud in Italy and some more that elude me now. Let me know if you need more. The overestimation of the Communist threat is far more than “current popular revision”, and in fact if you study internal policy documents on Vietnam and in a wider context you will see that no serious policy planner ever perceived a major Communist threat. There was always the recoginition as you pointed out of Mutual Assured Destruction, therefore Washington was fully aware that realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin.
Your National electoral statisitics will tell you that impoverished people see no reason to vote. There is a recognition today of the fact that our governements mine and yours do not serve our interests, it is just a choice of which you want more, the big stick or the big lie? That is your only choice!!!! For example how would you feel if I told you that George W. Bush never won a Presidential election. Empirically true fact that was never reported, except for one investigative journalist who was silenced in the US with charcter assassination and ad hominem tactics i.e. Greg Palast.
It is true that the UN has no power, this is primarily because of the United States absolute veto power.
What I am proposing when I say we should take it back is a major restriction of these invisible and highly impersonal forces that guide our lives. I mean we should take Democracy back, real democracy not this diluted form of representative democracy because honestly not one of these “politicians” represent me. Particularly when elections are no longer about policy but politicians and how many children they have, if they went to war, how many babies they kissed on their campaign trail. Elections are totally stage managed, every move these people make is regulated by some backstage PR person.
The United States has never had a problem before removing Human Rights Commissioners and others for not kowtowing to US dominance within the UN.
What I was saying about Chomsky was not that his opinions are consistent, obviously his opinions are always up for debate. I am talking about his meticulous documentation of bloodbaths throughout the world. See if his documentation is inconsistent, that is what I meant. You have yourself talked about US policy in the Middle East and Central America, you surely do not need me to name these vast swathes of the world where your country has done the same.
If you do not believe that your government serves your best interest then I would advise you genuinely research how they operate. I include within that framework the media, the Public Relations Industry and big business. I am afraid your mind may have become too insular.Try to research ina broader context the inherently violent institutions of state power.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 15, 2006 at 4:58 AM TonyB,
“There was always the recognition as you pointed out of Mutual Assured Destruction, therefore Washington was fully aware that realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin.”
Could it possibly be that those in the Kremlin didn’t look forward to being mutually destroyed? (Or, may have been due to no promise of virgins.)
“Your National electoral statistics will tell you that impoverished people see no reason to vote.”
Other stats will show a huge amount of campaign spending to get their votes. So much for stats. (My eldest son’s degree is in statistics — the only polls which are valid are those which truly aim for accuracy rather than to make a point.)
“For example how would you feel if I told you that George W. Bush never won a Presidential election.”
I am familiar with Palast. I would say you are accepting on faith what is claimed by writers like Chomsky — possibly because it matches what you already believe or want to believe. I will add that I don’t even like Bush and also doubt the validity of electronic, non paper supported ballots.
(I realize this is anecdotal again, but a lot of what you are quoting is merely anecdotal testimony which has been “blessed” by some unknown person or group.)I have had a lot of friends who were or are teachers and because they have no competition and some have tenure, they tend to live in a theoretical world.
The real world is far more complex. There are many motivations for policies and actions and ALL people act and react according to their perceptions.
A lot of people see computers, the internet and other late breaking technology as enabling and empowering ordinary people. While this may be true the downside is that it also enables small groups or even individuals to manipulate our thinking by taking advantage of our perceptions.People respond according to their perceptions which may or may not be reality. This is what consumer advertising is all based on. (I was on the fringes of this for forty plus years — my area was industrial.)
I distrust a lot of what government does. Not because of any huge conspiracy, but because these who make the big decisions affecting all of us also respond to THEIR perceptions. People can make very bad choices even from the best (in their view) reasons.
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The UN:
“It is true that the UN has no power, this is primarily because of the United States absolute veto power.”As does China, France and Russia. We also pay the largest share of the cost from our taxes — something which I see as a total waste.
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Representative government:
I have been disenchanted with the lack of true representation for thirty years — nobody cares. The only way I have had any influence is through the National Rifle Association — there is still some influence in numbers.Republicans used to basically represent business. Democrats represented labor. No longer true. Only special interest groups with strong lobbyists get attention. This fragments labor (as an example) into sexual orientation, religious preference, pro-choice or pro-life (abortion) geographic area....
Those with power and money get the ear of both parties.
Even though I disagree with the majority of financial and economic legislation I realize that it is possible for legislators to genuinely believe they have my interests at heart for the long run. Intelligence is not a requirement for office. (Example: G.H.W.Bush & Son)
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“I am afraid your mind may have become too insular.Try to research ina broader context the inherently violent institutions of state power.”And I suspect you are too quick to draw conclusions and too willing to accept information as fact.
The internet, IMO, does not qualify as research if truth is of primary importance. It is too easy to tamper with photos and the printed or typed word.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 15, 2006 at 9:55 AM The National Rifle Association???????
I am fully aware of the complexity of the real world. Again you have missed my point. I have fully researched all of the accusations put forth by people like Chomsky and Palast and came out with essentially the same conclusions. You are talking about small fringe groups manipulating our thoughts. What about the massive lobbying groups who do the same. We pay a very high mental price for the level of advertising we are forced to consume. I am aware of the obnoxious history of the Public Realtions industry including advertisers to cover-up specialists like Burson Marsteller to name just one. I feel it should be restricted at evry possible turn.
Of course the Kremlin did not look forward to being destroyed that was my point. That is why realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin. That is why the US or ate least their major policy planners never perceived a genuine threat from Moscow at least not on a global scale. (Continental perhaps, although that was generally a European and Chinese issue). I cannot see where my evidence has been anecdotal. The eveidence is there, naturally a 4000 character limit does not allow for a full exploration of the facts.
You should doubt the validity of non paper ballots as over 3 millon votes went missing in your last election. If you were black or hispanic your vote was 900 per cent more likely to be lost. Palast is also a statistician and has come up with some truly remarkable figures that are borne out by fact.
It is interesting how you use the word conspiracy for what in any other part of the world is simply recognised as institutional analysis.
You and the NRA march on the Penatgon tomorrow and demand the better world you purport to want and see how many cracked skulls you come back with. These are people who own the country, own the world, and will not let it get out of control. That nearly happened with the level of domestic dissent during the Vietnam war. However thesae institutions continue to flourish so I will assume they will continue to brush aside rural populations so Phillip Morris can grow his tobacco fields.
Anyway it has been a pleasure chatting with you and while I look forward to a response, I am afraid you need not expect one from me. I prefer to stick to the issues with research and prepare myself in courses of intellectual self-defense for thos who are willing to listen.
I am interested also to hear your comments on the vast swathes of the world where your nation has done similar if not worse things than the Soviets???
Posted by TonyB on Aug 15, 2006 at 10:32 AM TonyB,
The National Rifle Association???????
Yes, I am a target shooter, not a hunter and I hardly EVER shoot people. :-)
-----------------------------What I meant here…
(I realize this is anecdotal again, but a lot of what you are quoting is merely anecdotal testimony which has been “blessed” by some unknown person or group.)I realized that what I was about to write regarding teachers was anecdotal. IMO anecdotal is at least as valid as reading someone else’s data which is probably largely anecdotal (polls) to begin with.
“I have fully researched all of the accusations put forth by people like Chomsky and Palast and came out with essentially the same conclusions.”You have fully researched the above? How did you do that? What access do you have to the info you are referring to? Was it other than the internet?
“I am aware of the obnoxious history of the Public Relations industry including advertisers to cover-up specialists like Burson Marsteller to name just one. I feel it should be restricted at every possible turn.”
Who do you propose should decide on what to restrict? The UK has gradually eroded nearly all individual rights which is ironic since the basis for our freedoms came from there. The last time I was in England I read that the ordinary, honest citizen is forbidden to own a firearm so all are subject to “hot (armed)burglaries”
Yesterday I read in the Times that Tommy Sheridan, member of the Scottish Parliament, sued a newspaper which wrote an article damaging his reputation. Even though 18 witnesses, including 3 members of Parliament, testified the article was accurate. He was awarded 200,000 pounds for damages.Is this possible? Is this the kind of thing you believe our media also faces? Have you not seen all the critical commentaries about our government?
Initially you made a mysterious comment about our 14th Amendment giving corporations’ managers immunity (not so). Our individual rights are still guaranteed under the Bill of Rights: including Freedom of the Press.People are free to say, print, show almost anything — others are free to deny, oppose, object and sue if libeled. We are also free to believe or disbelieve either side of an issue. Most people realize that advertising is often over stated, that politicians are not pillars of truth. I would not want someone else to decide what I can say, hear, read or watch.
It is interesting to me that while you claim to distrust your government, you are willing to accept “institutional analysis.” What institutions are you trusting and why?
“So while we may all agree on the potential for freedom being the greatest in the US, there is no correlation between its internal freedom and its external behaviour.”
It appears as if you think of the USA as one continuous administration with a decades long plan of action bent on world domination. (Not altogether surprising since so much media coverage paints such a picture.) It is disappointing that an obviously well educated person who has not even been here has such a negative image of my country. (I may be assuming this unfairly.)
-------------------------------Thank you,
It has indeed been interesting and enlightening.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 16, 2006 at 8:56 AM Yes the ordinary honest citizen is forbidden to own firarms in Europe generally, that is why we dont have 12,000 gun murders every year.
You missed my point about the institutional analysis. I was saying that what is construed as a conspiracy theory is often just simple analysis.
I do take much of what I get from the Internet. There are many websites dedicated to archiving extensive amounts of internal policy documents. The Avalon Project at Yale is just one but there are countless others. The Virtual Vietnam Archive and the US Diplomatic History Resources Index is another.
I do not trust any institutions what I meant by institutional analysis was analysis of the institutions not analysis by them.
Yes you have freedom of the press I never denied that, I must reiterate again that your country enjoys great personal freedom. What I am saying is its external behaviour is totally unjustifiable.
Ken Lay it is true was implicated personally in corruption, and as a consequence of this Enron went under. It was not an investigation of Enron. Yes in your country corporations are guaranteed the same rights as an individual. Is there some ambiguity in that comment. It is fact. Therefore Bectel can refuse the indigenous people of Cochabamba their basic human right to water without an individual ever being implicated. A corporation is a collection of people so one of them can never be held solely responsible.
I have not seen any overly critical commentaries on your government in any mainstream media. At least not any that does not favour the idea that US deeds were well meaning but just enacted poorly.
The media operates entirel;y differently. There is a structure to be maintained that will not allow favoured truths and dogmas to be challenged such as the fact that your country was an aggressor against South Vietnam.
Your Constitution also apparently provides for a secular state. That too went down the drain. Freedom of the Press was supposed to be regulated by people not so called representatives of them. I believe your fore fathers had a much clearer picture of democracy than the totally diluted forms imposed upon us now.
I am not familiar with the Sheridan case but I must say this rarely happens. You luckily lost libel suits as a consequence of the Civil Rights Movement.
I would like you to address my comment about your country’s behaviour
in the list I have provided. When was that in the media, and if any of it was when was the real agenda discussed. Never!!!! This really is basic stuff. As I have said media subservience to government power is one of the best supported conclusions in the social sciences. The info is there if you want to find it you can.Take Care
Posted by TonyB on Aug 16, 2006 at 9:36 AM Whattheheck, it´s good to know that you hardly ever shoot people. My native tongue is Spanish, so forgive me if my insufficient knowledge of English arises a question: hardly ever is not the same as never, is it?
Let me guess, Michael Moore is as crazy as Chomsky,isn’t he?
You tell TonyB he probably is not in a good position to judge USA since he hasn’t been there. That is just the point: those of us outside the USA are not judging what goes on in your country, but we have suffered for many years the effects of USA’s foreign policies and their insistence in mingling in other peoples’ business. We have never expressed our wishes to be told what we should or shouldn’t do. As President Kirchner from Argentina said only last week: “Mr. Bush’s comments are not serious. They sound like the Roman Empire’s.” Every nation has a right to look for its own solutions and ways of living. Any idiot around the world knows by know what the wars in Middle East are about, don’t underestimate us. They are about greed and oil and disregard for the Muslim culture. The Arabians’ sin is to be settled on top of “your” oil.
Posted by Maria on Aug 16, 2006 at 5:39 PM TonyB,
I believe you are forming at least some of your opinions on half-truths, some by choice of site.
“The United States has never had a problem before removing Human Rights Commissioners and others for not kowtowing to US dominance within the UN.”
I don’t know who you are thinking of here, but I doubt Libya was an outstanding member to be on the committee.
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“Yes the ordinary honest citizen is forbidden to own firearms in Europe generally, that is why we don’t have 12,000 gun murders every year.”
I won’t claim this is genuine (there is no single “genuine” source)it is just one with a chart which showed both the U.S. and Ireland.It is from: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
international Violent Death Rates (Deaths per 100,000)
U.S. (1993) pop: 257,783,004, Total Deaths: 18.57, Total Homicide: 5.7, Firearm Homicide: 3.72, Total Suicide: 12.06, Firearm suicide: 7.35, Households with Guns: 39%
N.Ireland (1994) pop: 1,641,711, Total Deaths: 14.74, Total Homicide: 6.09, Firearm Homicide: 5.24, Total Suicide: 8.41, Firearm suicide: 1.34, Households with Guns: 8.4%
The highest growing segment in our city (pop: 151,000) and I believe it to be so in most of this size and larger is sometimes listed as “children.” However, these are mostly between the ages of 17 and 21 and gang related and drug related. Of these many are illegal immigrants, since we are one of the states with a higher than average number of illegals.
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Posted by whattheheck on Aug 17, 2006 at 7:21 AM “Your Constitution also apparently provides for a secular state.”
As opposed to religious are government is secular. The separation of Church and State provision in the Constitution is to prevent the requirement of specific religious membership being favored. In colonial times and shortly after the Anglican Church was a prerequisite to voting and other religious denominations were persecuted. Much of the present day controversy on this topic is political posturing. “That too went down the drain.” (???) Occasionally we get a President like Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush, who make a show of religious fervor,
--------------------------------------------------------------“Freedom of the Press was supposed to be regulated by people not so called representatives of them.”
All regulation from the beginning has been through elected representatives at local, State, and Federal levels. Any disputes on this or any issue are settled by the courts at progressively higher levels up to the Supreme Court. This has not changed.
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“I believe your fore fathers had a much clearer picture of democracy than the totally diluted forms imposed upon us now.”Any “impositions” can be taken to court by any citizen (and in some cases non-citizens) as the democratic process provides. One of the most recent is the Supreme Court’s ruling concerning Bush’s stand on torture to be allowed in “special situations.” (Which by the way, was stupid and disgusting on his part to most of us.)
I believe the men who led the revolution and then went on to establish this form of government did a remarkably able job of it. But since then others have also done well in protecting our liberties and this task is forever ongoing.
Some think that with the immediacy of information transfer now, we should be able to bypass the legislative process and have everyone vote on issues. I believe the founders knew this was a bad idea even back then. When emotions run high, reason is overcome.
--------------------------------------------------------------“I would like you to address my comment about your country’s behaviour
in the list I have provided. When was that in the media, and if any of it was when was the real agenda discussed. Never!!!!”Now I am SURE you are only receiving selected information.
It was and is constantly in the news over here. Have you really not heard about the Iran/Contra disputes? Things are in the news continuously now that we have 24/7 programing.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 17, 2006 at 7:23 AM The Iran-Contra affair was one small issue that fell through the cracks. Good reporters understood that in the months after this things would be more open for a while. It was the same after Watergate. I am not selecting any information I read widely on US diplomatic history. I have read from Arthur J. Schlesinger to Noam Chomsky, I find a majority to be apologetics. It is true that real objectivity can never be fully achieved that is why if I hear something said confidently I will always ask “Is that true?”. If the media operates fairly then address the figures I have provided above. We rarely, if ever, hear the story from refugees or dissenters. In fact it might be a better idea to have more dissenters on the news as given constraints of concision they will always sound as if they are “real nutcases”.
Of course you have elected representatives to regulate and discuss freedom of speech etc. howver I think it is time you ask who these people are genuinely representing. Perhaps at a Federal level some honesty remains. Take one pretty clearcut case o0f repression of ideas and freedom of research; the Monsanto Report published by two FOX reporters Jean Akre was one of them and the other name eludes me now, I can get if for you if you want. All the great investigative journalists have started off in the mainstream and when they offend the higher ups their position can become quite uncomfortable. Another example was a FOX news reporter being suspened for not making Reagan’s 90th birthday celebrations look clebratory enough. A pretty ridiculous case but a one indicative of media operation. Sure, everybody knows FOX is very biased with right wing cheerleaders like Bill O’ Reilly and Sean Hannity, even their so called liberals are amazingly conservative in their views. The charater assassination of Jesse Jackson during his Presidential campaign might be another example for you to look in to. One of the better reporters in Europe John Simpson was maliciously attacked by Tony Blair in the House of Commons because of his accurate reporting of the NATO aggression against Serbia, and of the fact that NATO bombing led to more sympathy for Milosevic than virtually any other factor. A fact well understood in the west, yet the bombing went ahead. This is also borne out by virtually every internal policy document on Kosovo before the bombing started.
The reason for the high gun murders in Northern Ireland (I live in the Republic not the North, I dont know iof you are familiar with our 800 year struggle against colonial imperialism) is the fact that many of the Paramilitary Groups after the Good Friday Agreement went into organised crime. There are so many guns in the North because of the decades of sectarian violence. They are not legally owned nor should they be.
Bush did not need any Supreme Court ruling to carry out torture. Infact method of torture have been one of your country’s main exports to sub-fascist terror regimes throughout the world since and after the Cold War. I can quote case histories until I am blue in the face I dont think it will make a difference to you. Of course I have become biased after so much research has led me to the same conclusion. I have a condition being so far out on the “left” ( whatever that term is supposed to mean) and there is a general condition on the left of being right and having empirically true fact on your side.
Hey Maria nice to see you again.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 17, 2006 at 9:41 AM With regards to your secular state, If your atae was truly secular then you would not have any moral laws. By this I mean anti-choice abortion laws, and vice laws. Your state is secular in name only.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 17, 2006 at 9:46 AM Maria,
Your English is far superior to my Spanish. I did study Spanish for 2 years in high school nearly 60 years ago, but with no practice it soon disappeared from memory.
I was making a stupid joke.... (:-) I have never shot anyone. If the data I sent to TonyB is at all accurate I would say that a country with 39% gun ownership has a lot more self control than people expect.
Chomsky is not really crazy he is an intellectual who lives in a dream world and believes utopia is possible. The world could be so only if all the people were gone.
Michael Moore is an opportunist. He is on the outrageous left and balances against guys like Rush Limbaugh on the extreme right. He has found a very profitable market and continues to exploit it.
I’m sorry if the USA’s foreign policies have caused you trouble. I suspect most of the effects were from our period of extreme concerns over what was perceived as a worldwide threat of communist domination. I think the communists were not friendlier to each other than toward us, but there was mutual distrust. (Which at times was justified and at other times not.)
I disagree with the President of Argentina — I think that Bush IS serious. I think he seriously thinks God has given him a mission to democratize the world. I would love for people to be as free as they may want. I don’t believe freedom can be imposed to people — they must want it for themselves. The term “Peacekeeping Force” makes no sense to me.
Bush’s loyalty is misplaced. He is loyal to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, he should be loyal to the American people. Rumsfeld’s plan for Iraq was faulty from the start. Still he stubbornly sticks to it and Bush refuses to replace him with a wiser person.
As the only “Super Power” the US feels like the world’s father than the child you see. We are therefore the primary target to blame for every wrong in the world. We get criticism if we get involved anywhere. We get criticized if we do not become involved. Too little in Africa, too much in the Middle East. Although last night on TV the Bush administration was being taken to task for NOT being involved in the Middle East “Peace Process” for the past three years.
We are expected to care for, (aid to far too many places) but not to disipline or chastise. Personally, I want to be neither parent or child — sibling would be better.I believe the Middle East problems are ancient and not solvable by any of us. If there is a solution it must be theirs. The western nations divided the Arab tribes into countries in 1922. (Breaking their promises and against the advice of Lawrence of Arabia.) In 1948 the West again made a bad decision by encouraging the creation of the state of Israel as a place for the European Jews to settle. If a government or group of countries gave away my home I would not be forgiving of anyone involved.
U.N. participation will only delay conflict, not solve it. Just as Bosnia, Serbiaa, Croatia — after Tito died they were happy to get back to killing each other.
Oil? Yes, we want the oil. They want to sell it. What other marketable product do they have? I hope the price stays high to encourage other sources of energy development. I may feel differently if I had to travel very far to work. For twenty years I have tried to create an interest in a national rail system here. Railroads (Ferrocaril?) are the most effecient means to move large loads.
Muslims? Disregard for culture travels both directions. We have a Muslim family living two doors from our house — neither of us has a problem with the other.Hasta luego, Adios.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 18, 2006 at 6:55 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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