Trust me, George Bush says, perched on the remains of Geneva Conventions, the Constitution and habeas corpus. From this moral high ground, the United States is assuring the world that a new facility for researching a horror shop of weaponized infectious diseases will be used purely for defensive purposes. The National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasures Center’s (NBACC) $128 million, 160,000-square-foot… return to article
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Reader Comments (44)Page 1 of 1 pagesDo as I say, NOT as I do .
This article is correct , as far as it goes, but there is more to be said.
Terry does not address the dark history of government scientists (who were not “creationists --- just unscrupulous mad bastards) who experimented on soldiers, prisoners, kids in orphanages, and other civilians over much of the last century.
A few months ago the britgov paid out £100, 000 compensation to the family of a serviceman killed by a sarin experiment at Porton Down UK, FIFTY years ago. Frog remembers the ‘invitations’ to participate , in the late 1960’s Brit Army.
There are thousands of other cases if we include radiation exposure. Gulf War Syndrome, Agent Orange, extend to millions .
Aerial spraying of civilian areas has already been carried out in US and UK to determine the airborne spread of aerosol bugs / radioactive particles.
Mad scientists are bad enough, as they will get more research funds if they can demonstrate a threat, and what better way to do it than manufacture one ?
A new dimension is added with privatisation of research, where the manufacture of vaccines represents gigantic profits. $ BILLIONS .
The increasing crossover already between BigPharma and gov t Agencies has proved counterproductive, as those in FDA, EPA etc, have often been “owned” by those whose products they were called upon to judge.
Bio-War Research, and “vaccine-production” is like any other Arms Race.
Posted by frog on Sep 5, 2006 at 6:40 AM A sidelight on this is the H5N1 Bird Flu scam.
Local vets were ordered to encourage backyard poultry keepers here to keep birds inside, or at least feed them there, install new fencing, lots of BlaBla !
Big health scare , and Bad science. All was blamed on “wild bird migration”.
New strains of disease arise with intensive production, spread by international trading of chicks, etc.
Globalisation again. Some profit, like Rummy and tamiflu (google that !), the rest of us get scared by the media, and PAY .
Posted by frog on Sep 5, 2006 at 6:51 AM As always, in her expectation of a perfect world, Terry Allen begins by pointing out any and all US faults. Also as usual even accidents and misjudgments are lumped in as vicious plots against alll but the priveliged few. (I guess they must all have been vacinated and will be at zero risk.)
I suggest Terry go to Iran and demand to inspect any and all research labs and military sites. (I suppose she would have protested the A-bomb development if able. What did your Daddy do in the War, Terry?)
Let’s have a bit of balance here. Sure there have been stupid and even outrageous decisions — but we don’t have a corner on the market.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 5, 2006 at 9:45 AM WTH
Please notice my example IS from the UK Ministry of Defence.
Your attack on Terry is ad hominem, including a generation back !
My own Daddy served 1939-46, started at 18 and finished up as Radar Chief of HM Pacific Fleet at age 24. He served in every theatre from a Russian Convoy (under Luftwaffe bombing) to hunting the Bismarck , to Atlantic Convoys (under submarine attacks), but none of that will make anything I say here more accurate.
Terry’s daddy is not her , either .
To have a bit of balance here, may we assume that Terry lives in the USA, and looks in her own backyard first before all else ?
As a general principle, what happens first in the US arrives elsewhere a little later. One example. The riots in Watts were later followed in the UK. Another is the catastrophic increase in obesity in the US , which we are now seeing , first of course in the UK, and now in the rest of Europe.
As often , you shoot your fingers off onto keyboard before engaging brain, and really researching what this is all about, thinking HARD about where this type of so-called Research will lead, has already led, and COULD lead .
I can understand any government wisely and quietly researching and assessing the possibilities of BioWar.
I would do the same, very discreetly. So would you , I know.
The Soviets did it, we know. There are also indications that the Apartheid Gov in South Africa did so, along the same lines as their Nuke programme.
When does ‘defence’ become potentiallly ‘attack’ ?
Ike told us that the BOMBS were completely ‘unnecessary’ against Japan.
More than my friend rabbit, I appreciate your resistance to propaganda, for you are often right, BUT on some subjects you swallow it whole.
Carried away by the ‘Iranian Menace’, do you honestly think they are plotting BioWar against Rockford USA ?
Nah !
Posted by frog on Sep 5, 2006 at 2:00 PM Hi Frog,
I only threw in the part about her Daddy because so many WW2 guys I know credit the dropping of the bomb for their lives. One WW2 Marine friend has a daughter who goes to an annual candle light A-bomb protest — he has to remind her that not for the bomb she would not be here.
In fact I have only heard opposition from those who would not have been in on the invasion of the Japanese islands. To a man those who participated in amphibious attacks on Japanese held islands are totally convinced that Japan too was better off because of the bombs. They would have fought to the last person and we still would have won.
To effectively counter a biological attack you must have the agent in question first. Of course the potential for mischief is there, but then you could say every woman is a potential whore. (Whatever we do, let’s not ban women:-)I see absolutely no reason not to expect a biological attack on the US — it would certainly be my first choice if I were out to create terror and mass destruction. My experience is limited only to army texts of 45 years ago, but I am disgusted that we have not prepared people to be alert for such. Much could be done.
You and I always seem to find some point of agreement despite our many varying opinions. I too thought the bird flu epidemic was way overstated. How much was political “inoculation” against criticism and how much was just another diversion, I can’t say.
I talked with a retired doctor about bird flu. He was concerned, since the preparation time for any vaccine virtually eliminated it being helpful to very many. When I asked him about bio attack he said it would be very effective due to the time it would take to identify it. A lot of symptoms are common with less serious medical problems.
You list a number of past “experiments” some which included participants unaware of the testing. While I believe some is true, this kind of claim still begs the question of how much was predetermined to be dangerous. Since tobacco is still legally promoted and even subsidized there is no doubt unscrupulous people would stop at nothing if money is involved. (btw, creationism/evolution belief is irrelevant)
There was recently a report here on the thousands of people dying in our hospitals’ mistakes. The use of Agent Orange would not have been used without the experts giving it a “harmless to humans” stamp since not only the enemy but also our troops suffer the result. Medical science is continually revised.
Humans are often wrong even with the best intentions. All life is precarious and we begin life under threat of death and live it so each day. I am just “sick to death” (to borrow her title) with the constant bitching and moaning and blaming everything on the US government. At the same time the volume of pro-Muslim Extrmist propaganda is swallowed unchewed picturing them as total underdogs without so much as an unkind thought toward the rest of us.
I heard Germany just had a bomb scare — so much for being “uninvolved” in Iraq.
I guess I should just stay away from this website, since the placing of blame is the primary goal here, much of the talk is just speculation, guilt is established haphazardly and most alternative views are dismissed out of hand and the discussion rapidly degenerates into idiotic name calling and personal attacks.There are better things we can do with our time.
Cheers!
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 6, 2006 at 7:32 AM WTH
Always enjoy talking to you.
There is a natural gut-instinct reaction towards defending one’s own country when one feels it is being unjustly ‘attacked’.
Been there myself . There is a centuries’ old hostility Brit / frog, and the sort of people who go in for Xenophobia and stereotyping play it . Being older and wiser I now know most of their attacks and “Play” with them.
Those poor hostile fools are easy .
The interesting opposite ones are those sold on ‘modernity’, globalisin’, and privatisin’ public utilities, who believe life is all sunshine in US and Blair’s Britain . You and I know that is not so .
Old Marines who still believe their lives were saved by the Bombs will believe what they will. A blockade would have done the job, I suspect ! Nuff said.
As your doc said, there ain’t no real defence against BioWar/ birdflu, which contradicts your point about having “agents ready “ ? , .
Which is one good reason for the World getting together to do some small , or LARGE things to making it unlikely.
Biological attack on the USA ?
Creating terror and mass destruction in the USA, but for what purpose ?
Terrorism is a TACTIC, like night attacks or flanking movements. It is rarely nihilistic, for its own sake --- normally there is a political and / or military objective.
We were brought up under the nuclear threat, and survived.
I am far more interested in designing housing which does NOT need large inputs of energy to be warm in winter and cool in summer.
The ideal is as close to zero as possible !
Then no need to go warring around the world for fear of losing oil supplies etc.
Posted by frog on Sep 6, 2006 at 5:32 PM We face an increasingly ‘neocon’ solution from the Harper Conservative cabal running Canada and ‘Steve’s (Bush’s new puppet) commitment to playing a bigger role on the world stage. Someone forgot to tell him that he’s no better an actor than the Straussian clone running the US.
Another friend posted a brilliant look at the combination of the two of them and should be a ‘must see’ for all concerned about both our leaders actions. I did my part to ensure the information is available to surf in blogsphere btw, Have you met Mr. Busharper?
Wake up ‘sheeple’! Time to baaa your own tune.
Peace please!
neilemac
Posted by neilemac on Sep 8, 2006 at 6:06 AM The USA Senate has recently discovered there was no link between Saddam and AlQaeda. It certainly took them a long time to reach that brainy conclusion. Are they ready to undo all the harm their troops inflicted in Irak, mostly to civilians? There is no way that can possibly be done, but at least it could be used to stop creating fear of other countries, such as Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, Venezuela, and so many others who have a right to live their lives as they think fit.
I agree with frog, that creating fear is a good business. Most of us live in fear of the weapons and chemicals the USA produce. I don’t feel in any way less threatened by their potential because they are in USA’s hands.
Quite on the contrary, because no other country in the world feels it has the right to impose fear on others as they do.
I am not only sick of this all, I am dead scared to see the amount of power accumulated by the Empire for one main purpose: greed and blindness, plus the prevail of a shrinking, reptilian brain in charge at most levels.
Posted by Maria on Sep 8, 2006 at 11:42 AM Maria
Surely sick of it, but not yet scared ....?
maybe i"m an incorrigible optimist, but not scared YET !
OF COURSE I recognise the ‘race-war’ possibility that Bushniks or similar Powermaniacs might decide to wipe our three-quarters of humanity to get “Lebensraum” .
In the shorter term, those Mothas are eating away at the very basis of life--- monopolising the possibilities for agri- seeds.
A century ago there were thousands of different strains of wheat / apple trees, now there are twenty predominant ones, and the others start to DISAPPEAR .
ten days ago, here in france, the goddam secret police invaded the house of a guy publishing the age-old recipes for using “nettles” in a decoction, for insect-repellent and fertiliser .
Well, the caterpillars disappeared from my cabbages, using it !
ONE SMALL EXAMPLE of what is already happening.
The small minority who are researching BioWar are the brothers of that small minority who are trying to monopolise and patent the natural resources that belong to all of us.
FASCISTS .
Posted by frog on Sep 10, 2006 at 5:51 PM frog, I am not personally scared, I fear for the future of young people, children and those who are to come. I feel they are denied the right to live in harmony with nature, of which we are only a part. Every day I use part of my day to walk about, talk to people trying to open their eyes, picking tree seeds and planting them in any space I find, talking to and embracing ancient trees (the few that are left) but you wouldn’t believe it, being this a supposedly nature-loving country how indifferent people are becoming, blinded by the model which the media is trying to impose on them. Not too many years ago Latin America had more than 40 varieties of potatoes and corn. They have all disappeared, farmers now buy their chemically treated seeds which have no reproductivity, so they have to buy them every time they want to plant and then they fumigate the plants with products which poison the earth, kill birds and butterflies and produce tasteless vegetables all of one kind.
I don’t know if you had the chance of seeing “MondoVino”, a documentary film about wine production in France, Italy and Argentina, the way it has been manipulated and jeopardized so that wine from California could outstand. If you saw it, the last part of this film is in Argentina, the owners of those vineyards being relatives of mine, so I know it is absolutely true.
All this makes José Bové my personal hero.
Posted by Maria on Sep 10, 2006 at 6:39 PM Frog,
You say you are “an incorrigible optimist” — OK, but just as you think I am obsessing about terrorists it seems to me your are so with facism. Given the European experience of the 20th century perhaps I would be in your camp. Living in the U.S. perhaps you would view the global blame game in a different light.
By the way, the doctor didn’t say there was no defense against bio. He said there could not be an effective serum developed in time to treat a vast number of victims for a rapidly morphing virus. There are many things IMO which we could protect against.
There is a company providing info for individuals at:www.terroristattackcd.com/
---------------------------
Any terrorism discussion seems to concentrate only on the U.S. due to our military involvment in the ME. As a result the many other attacks soon fade from the news.
I have always judged “War on Terror” to be a misnomer. Here is an excerpt from recent article highlighting other vicious attacks on innocent people trying to live ordinary lives which better describes the battlefield.------------------------
It would have been far better if President Bush had characterized the atrocity as an attack on civilization itself, and it would be preferable if we observed the anniversary in the same spirit.
In the past five years, I have either registered or witnessed or protested at or simply “observed” the following:
(1) The reopening of a restaurant in Bali, where several dozen Australian holidaymakers and many Indonesian civilians had earlier been torn to shreds.
(2) The explosion of a bomb at a Tube station in London which is regularly used by two of my children.
(3) The murder of a senior Shiite cleric outside his place of worship in Iraq.
(4) The attempt to destroy the Danish economy--and to torch Danish embassies and civilians--as a consequence of the publication of a few caricatures in the Danish press.
(5) The murder of the U.N. envoy to Baghdad: a heroic Brazilian named Sergio Vieira de Mello, as vengeance (according to his murderers) for his role in shepherding East Timor to independence.
(6) The near-successful attempt to blow up the Indian parliament in New Delhi, and two successful attempts to disrupt the commerce and society of Mumbai.
(7) The destruction of the Golden Dome in Samara: a place of aesthetic as well as devotional importance.
(8) The bombing of ancient synagogues in Tunisia, Turkey and Morocco.
(9) The evisceration in the street of a Dutch filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, and the lethal threats that drove his Somali-born colleague, a duly elected member of the Dutch parliament, into hiding and then exile.
(10) The ritual slaughter on video of a Jewish reporter for this newspaper.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008926
----------------------------
I send this not to try to instill fear, but rather to indicate the iniversal threat which only a small number of fanatics can pose today. This will only be stopped by a massive cooperative effort.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 13, 2006 at 7:15 AM Hi HECK,
I wouldn’t say I was in the Blame Game. Most criticism of US applies elsewhere too. The Military-Industrial complex is truly multinational.
.All sorts of groups are engaged in uncivilised and even barbarous acts, and most of them are Criminals, and many wear suits and have VERY expensive lawyers.
The Reichstag Fire and Hitler’s subsequent Enabling Acts are part of world history, which we can all look at and maybe learn from.
Surprising numbers of terror groups have been penetrated by secret service agencies, and ‘used’ by them. A nasty world.
Acts of terrorism could be, have been, a VERY good way of distracting the mass of the peoples’ attention from problems that are actually far more serious.
Like a street incident you stop to watch, while someone picks your pocket .
Your list is horrible I agree, but no more so than a bad day in Blair and Bush’s Iraq.
If you think back to our earlier discussions on globalisation, and the disappearance of so many good skilled jobs, the absolute decline in the quality of life for very many over the last 25 years, THAT is where I prefer to focus.
As Maria said, the worldwide agri-chemical industry is killing poor farmers, purely for profit, by stealing their land, forcing gmo seeds on them --- the list is long. Killing our own farmers, too, but more slowly.
They have accomplices in government, usually bought in some way or other. Look at my example 9/10 5.51, the police forced their way into a man’s house in france....
OUR societies are going down the pan at the moment, but it is not a few mad or bad terrorists doing it.
OUR politicians are either clueless or corrupt, and the easiest way to keep us subdued is by FEAR.
Maria --- I saw the film, not a great surprise, eh ?
Posted by frog on Sep 13, 2006 at 3:49 PM Frog,
We certainly agree on the effects of globalization and the down hill slide of our societies. I believe our basic disagreement on terrorist attacks is one of the primary common denominator.
I just sent a comment to the new discussion question concerning the Federal Minimum Wage opinion for the U.S. My disgust at the massive cooperative effect of government, big business and the idiotic media continues to grow. Senator Dorgan has been tenacious, but nearly alone in his attempts to address the issue — what a frustration!
I am sorry to say the comments by Maria do not surprise me. They say music is the common language, but greed seems to speak universally and much louder. In the mid 1990s one of my clients who made screws and bolts switched all their “standard” items (not requiring special steel or other unique features) to Taiwan. A friend told me he saw them dumping plating solution out the back door into a rice paddy — no wonder the cost was lower. For a few pennies per package how many people were being poisoned?
As for this article — I too am sick of Bush. I recently read an article which claimed he speaks fluently when not in public. OK, I write better than I speak in front of an audience, but his narrow view of life is the real problem IMO. I think of him like a computer (Well, maybe not as smart...) GIGO garbage in — garbage out. (More like a parrot?)
Example: The Supreme Court says “No torture” and the military manuals now specify a list of not allowed practices. What does Bush say? Ok, but the CIA will not need to comply just in case there is a time when torture might be able too prevent the deaths of thousands of people.
WHAT!?! For a one in a million possibility he goes public with such a comment — God what an idiot! IF such a circumstance were EVER to occur an agent on the spot would do what he felt necessary anyway. That is reality. That is life in the real world, but Bush can’t THINK. He has no imagination, all is literal!
The list of attacks from the Opinion Journal article is set apart from other terrorist acts by the Muslim connection. This is not a dispute over territory or politics (although like the diversions you cited they are sometimes used as incentives and excuses). This is a transnational ideological common thread seeking religious dominance at any expense in lives.
While virtually every major religion has a similar historical example, interconnectivity and technological advances have made it possible for only a few suicidal fanatics to threaten the whole world rather unlike prior religious crusades.
I believe the mess we have made in Iraq is due to application of erroneous military thinking and political/economic factors taking precedence. I see the Rumsfeld approach as one of making Iraq a central base of operations in the ME. The embassy under construction in any other century would be called a fortress. They see dependence on oil as primary to our economy and perpetuation of our lifestyle.
It is, but we should have changed that since the mid-1970s when there were long lines at the gasoline stations. Even now, after announcing that we are “at war” there has been NO attempt to alter our consumption. As the price falls driving will once again increase.
We should be building those houses you described, but a mile from my door is a huge new house for sale with 12 foot high ceilings, an open foyer to the upstairs and more square feet of space than any family in our city will ever need. This will only stop when fuel is far more expensive.
We must not continue to see life as separate issues — oil and war, religious differences, government and business, are interlocked. Cause and effect are often indistinguishable.There are still a lot of people operating under the idea “all people want the same things in life.” “Things” or the same intangibles are are not universally desired. To those who see this life only as preparation for a “real” life after death, we cannot reason in those terms.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 14, 2006 at 7:44 AM HECK,
Behind the tough old rather militaristic guy is a ‘Greeny’ trying to get out !
Carter was the wrong man saying the right things in the Seventies. IF the US had declared a War on EnergyWasting then, the common mindset in the US would be very different today ?
Just imagine the cocktail set in San Fran--- “ Waal, my house doesn’t NEED AC, because we are using techniques discovered in the Middle East a thousand years ago”.
POWERFUL FORCES conspired to make it otherwise, keep the users hooked on their drugs.
Same here in europe.
ON TERRORISM .................. .
I think it was Robert Pape, an american academic, who did a study on suicude bombers. Most , from memory, were inspired by political / nationalistic aims rather than Islamist fundy nihilistic Ideology.
Young fools who suicide themselves are NOT the major problem in the world today. They make the headlines, (by killing a few people,) .... but so do footballers’ salaries.
I am currently following debates at Blairwatch . We are now seeing a concerted media propaganda campaign to tell us all that Ahmedinejihad of Iran made a speech calling for “wiping Israel off the map “ .
I hear that day and night on the brit and french mainstream media.
The whole thing is bogus, like the “WMD” of Iraq.
Virginia Tilley on those translations
That propaganda campaign looks very much as though they are “softening us up” for their Next Step.
Another “"October Surprise “” ?
Posted by frog on Sep 14, 2006 at 2:32 PM Whattheheck, Did I get you right? You don’t seem to be shocked by the idea of the CIA practicing torture, but by your president saying it in a loud voice. I have always wondered about the American sentence_ “You have to do what you have to do”. That is so ample anything can be covered by that umbrella. Who is to decide “what you have to do”.? It sounds like somebody has the only possible answer to everything and the rest of us, mortal beings are supposed to abide by that and don’t use our own inner voice and assume our personal responsibility.
Alternative ways of generating power haven’t been developed or used because there is still some oil left and the corporations don’t want to miss the profits involved. The same with wars, weapon manufacturers are behind conflicts because it’s good business . The same with fear, if you scare people about diseases, terrorists, thiefs, and a wide variety of “perils” you can sell them your junk. All that is easier and more profitable to do than try to understand the root of those problems and try to create the conditions of a more compassionate and just world.
Posted by Maria on Sep 14, 2006 at 3:32 PM Maria asked, “Did I get you right? You don’t seem to be shocked by the idea of the CIA practicing torture, but by your president saying it in a loud voice.”
No, unfortunately, you did not get me right.
When I said, “I am sorry to say the comments by Maria do not surprise me.” I meant the part about companies disregarding the health, safety and jobs of other people. For some it is always this way.My point on torture is that Bush refuses to let this issue be totally forbidden. He still wants to be on record that in the most extreme situation, the CIA would be justified to do anything needed if it would save a large number of lives.
It is my belief that:
1. The possibility of such a situation is so unusual, so remote, that it is not worth considering.2. IF an agent should EVER be in a situation when a catastrophic event was about to happen and would be prevented by using extreme methods to prevent it — I expect the agent would do “what ever he had to do” to stop it.
Certainly policemen, firemen, doctors, soldiers — anyone faced with life or death situations must make immediate and difficult decisions often, but the kind of scenario Bush presents is too unusual to need a policy statement.
Making it a policy option only provides an excuse for those who would use it under less than “forgivable” circumstances. (like your umbrella description)
3. Bush is a fundamentalist Christian who tends to see the Bible in a quite literal way. The Bible says, “Thou shalt not bear false witness”, so to him is is logical that to say “never” would be to lie. I have several in my family who think this way.
Now Bush has left himself and our country looking heartless and vindictive once again. THAT is just plain stupid, in my opinion. He must have watched too many disaster movies.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 15, 2006 at 7:04 AM Frog,
I don’t see any contradiction here.
“Behind the tough old rather militaristic guy is a ‘Greeny’ trying to get out !”
Jimmie Carter was totally alien to Washington — He didn’t know or like them and ran his administration as though he were still back in peanutland. IMO he is a well meaning person, but not equipped to deal with the realities of life. He wants to believe in the basic goodness of mankind and we were lucky all he gave away the Panama Canal. (That should get a response about empire building.)
“IF the US had declared a War on EnergyWasting then...”
Yes! I voted for John B. Anderson who proposed a $0.50 tax/gallon of gasoline and using the funds for developing alternative energy.
Since then I have voted for Ross Perot and would have voted for Pat Buchanan based on their economic views. I knew at the time none off them had a prayer, but at least they were independent thinkers with long-term interests in mind.
I have a very good friend who designed and built his home in 1952. He bought two adjacent lots, placed the house on the north with lots of glass facing the south and very small widows high up under a wide overhanging eaves. He planted maple and oak trees for summer shade and exposure to the sun in winter. This passive solar design cost nothing except for the land. He later sold half of the southern lot to assure no one could build there — ever. He then recouped his initial expense and more.
I know another person who designed and built a house with several feet of rather large stones under the foundation. Large glass areas collected heat during the day which circulated by gravity down under and heated the rocks. Only in the coldest and shadiest days did he need any other heat source. The initial cost was substantial, but he could have afforded even the most inefficient design and chose not to.
We built our modest size home in 1967 and we have since made a few changes to be more efficient, but nothing unusual. We replaced all windows with double glazed and can control the heat by sections. (depending on what rooms we are using)
The broad market will only make these houses available as routine when the cost of fossil fuel is extreme. (either money or heallth) Until then it is the only iconoclast who will do it voluntarily.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 15, 2006 at 7:49 AM Heck, I prefer your Greenery to the other stuff .
(Carter was not completely an innocent, I believe he was the one started funding the Afghan mujahadin in 1979, and we’ve seen where that led. )
New regulations in Old Europe are steadily increasing insulation, stipulating much larger areas of double-glazed windows, and an architect friend tells me they seem to be aiming at “bio-climatic” houses for 2050, with most of the measures in place in a very few years from now.
. I’m plotting to upgrade my house, increase the vegetable production, and going to see an ‘electric bike’ tomorrow.
Some investment now for far greater energy independence , and the need for less $, therefore less work to do ! So I can have more time for trouble-making against the Globalisas and their omnipresent quislings amongst us.
Posted by frog on Sep 15, 2006 at 2:37 PM Maria
As you see I’m starting with my own garden , which is my way of escaping the foodtrade monopolies, and more people here are buying direct from local small farms. Small initiatives, for sure, but worth investing time in. Supporting political campaigns too.Searching out the rare politicians with honesty, independence and commonsense is vital-- byron dorgan for one .(thread at ITT)—and telling the others what we expect from them, or else…
José Bové a good man, as is Francois Dufour, a small farmer down the road who was spokesman for that movement, (puerto alegre etc) and is still incredibly active. We demonstrated together from 8 to 11 a few months ago, and then he went home for hay-making !
La Confederation Paysanne is very small, very internationalist, very committed, but it is a hell of a struggle .
Posted by frog on Sep 15, 2006 at 3:03 PM This is what real scientists should be doing, not playing Dr Strangelove .
Posted by frog on Sep 15, 2006 at 3:20 PM Frog,
I heard on the news his morning the Food & Drug Administration has OKed the addition of certain viruses to various food products to help prevent some kind of obscure disease.
“It kills 500 citizens per year and sickens another 2000.”Amazing! I’ll sleep better tonight.
(I would guess that is about how many people die each year from tripping over the household pet and drown his water dish.)
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 16, 2006 at 7:03 AM Frog,
I read Virginia’ Tilley’s article, “Putting Words in Ahmadinejad’s Mouth” and also the interview with Robert Pape regarding the motives for suicide bombers. As usual I come away with more questions than answers.
Having only a smattering of any languages other than English I can readily accept variations in translating as well as interpreting what was said and what was meant. For that matter look at all the discussion of anything a head of state says even among listeners whose native tongue was used. In addition to genuine miscommunication we must add the subconscious predisposition of the listener/interpreter and also the possible desire to spin the meaning to sway others.
After searching and reading a bit about Tilley and also as evidenced in her remarks apart from the differing translation it seems apparent she has an anti-Bush agenda apart from this single issue. With this in mind I can see where she would prefer the translation she offers.
I frankly don’t have any way of telling which (if either) is Ahmadinejad’s intended message. An additional possibility is that he may have intended to be vague in order to create this kind of controversy — he is obviously very intelligent.
I ran across one debunker of Tilley’s article:
http://right reason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/09/ahmadinejads_ap.htmlAll others that I went to were really a circular discussion about the Tilley one.
I went to Amazon and read the reviews of her book, “The One-State Solution: A Breakthrough for Peace in the Israeli-Palestinian Deadlock” and think it an unlikely solution. If various Muslim factions are happiest when killing each other, (Sunnis and Saudis) how can we expect to see Israelis survive in that same country?
---------------------------The Robert Pape statistics may be have been accurate at the time, but I assume motivation may change rapidly by specific events. Also it must be difficult to determine motive without knowing or interviewing each individual. Anything else would be an assessment by third party and subject to bias or manipulation.
Regardless of the data look at what other factors we do know.
The U.S. has maintained large troop deployments in Europe since WW2. In South Korea since 1950. (When asked to leave Subic Bay Naval Base in the Philippines, we left.)
There was a saying in Great Britain during the war about the Yanks, “Over paid, over sexed and over here.” Probably only partly in jest — at least from the “blokes.”
There are many in this country now who resent the inflow of illegal Mexican immigrants. Locally, crime by these individuals is up and within the past week rival gangs have been responsible for the wounding of innocent bystanders and the death o a seven year old girl in her bedroom. (bullet through the wall) There have been calls for enforcement of border security and deportation, but so far no violent opposition.
While there must have been people who wanted us to get out of their country (at least after the fall of the Soviet Union) I don’t remember any huge protests or certainly no attacks on U.S. Embassies or other targets.
Then there’s the violent response to the Danish cartoons and now the violence due to what is seen as an insult to Islam by the Pope. Neither of these has any troops stationed in the Middle East, so the suicidal attacks on targets of opportunity appear to be unique to Muslims and triggered by any excuse they chose.
From:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20421613-5005961,00.html‘In his speech at the University of Regensburg, Benedict quoted criticism of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad by 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who wrote that everything Mohammad brought was evil and inhuman, “such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.’
The Muslim reaction only confirms the 700 year old opinion. Can’t they see the irony. They need to get a grip and get over it.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 17, 2006 at 12:09 PM Frog,
I don’t know why I find it surprising, but nearly everyone I hear is saying the Pope needs to apologize for offending Muslims with his use of the 14th century quote.
Even if he were expressing his own opinion the killing of a nun, burning of churches and other violent forms of protest are inexcusable.
The media and many of the world’s spokesmen are so afraid of this minority group idiot religious fanatics they treat them like a spoiled child. With anything they don’t like they simply throw a tantrum and people kneel and kiss ass.
Why is there no outrage at THEIR behavior?
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 18, 2006 at 7:10 AM Guys from Saudi Arabia, SUPPOSEDLY , did 911, and in a tantrum gwb invaded IRAQ and killed a hundred thousand or so .
Them Christians sure have planks in their eyes.
If I remember right Tilley refers to translations by ithers. First I saw was in a german paper.
Why not forget the ad hominem stuff for a while , and go and look for various translations ?
Posted by frog on Sep 18, 2006 at 2:28 PM Why does all your criticism begin and end with Bush?
Why do you accept Tilley or anyone else unquestioningly and then build your theories on them?
What difference if all 9/11 guys were all from Saudi Arabia? Think of how many other attacks by Muslims where from assorted countries. This is not a nation against nation fight.
Most of all — why not hold these people responsible for their actions?
The Pope has no close assocciation with our involvement in Iraq as far as I know.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 18, 2006 at 3:16 PM HECK,
“Gwb” is shorthand for this administration.
This administration is a continuation, and extension to new depths, of previous US policy.
I mentioned Tilley, because the name easier to remember, seen a number of others on the subject of translation .
Constant repetition of a few simple messages is the essence of selling, and PROPAGANDA, I am sure you will agree WTH ?
Considering how much obfuscation and goddam lying can be got away with, USING a COMMON LANGUAGE, WOWEE for anything in translation ! (we agree, maybe ,)
Holding suicide bombers responsible for their actions I agree with.
Let us impose the death penalty.
Posted by frog on Sep 18, 2006 at 9:13 PM The U.S. Government has a long history beginning with the nuclear tests on Bikini Atoll, where thousands of soldiers were told to go on deck and watch the explosions. They saw each others skeletons during the blast, and puked their guts out for the next few days. So don’t trust them to handle biological agents safely either.
Go to GOOGLE and type in the words “The downwinders” to find out what it was like in St. Georges, UT, just down wind from the Nevada test site during the testing era. As one woman in her 50s said, “My high school reunion is at the local cemetery.”
In 1979 Depleted Uranium dust from Nat’l Lead industries back East, contaminated 52 properties leading to a 100 million dollar cleanup and closure of the plant. There is about 10,000 times as much DU dust in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is why experts such as Dr. Asaf Durakovic, Dr. Jawad-Al-Ali, and Dr. Ahmad Hardan have used the word “war crimes” to describe their use. (Dr. Ali talks about numerous families with multiple cancer victims. Ever heard of nine members of a family getting cancer at once?
I have lots of info on this at; vitaltruths.blogsource.com
Posted by aspendougy on Sep 18, 2006 at 9:28 PM aspendougy,
All of what you say I have heard and have no serious doubts about the events. We can add to that the Agent Orange and various food additives we are ingesting
However, not is due to nefarious motives. Bad things can happen to good people from the best of intentions.
Personally, I have had far more radiation than doctor would administer today. Nearly sixty years ago I received it as treatment for an extreme case of acne. I only knew one other kid who had it and she died of cancer of the thyroid about 15 years ago. I don’t think their was anything other than ignorance involved.
For several years our city has sprayed insecticides from helicopters to fight an influx of Japanese beetles. While they say, “It is harmless to humans,” they recommend people stay inside when they apply it. Hmmmm?
We live 20 miles downwind of a nuke power plant, are currently under a warning of a spinach contamination and probably many more things we’ll eventually find are a threat.If we don’t die of “natural causes” someone will figure another way — though ignorance, stupidity, and yes also some disgusting ones.
Watch out for those"good intentions” especially from a government source.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 19, 2006 at 7:30 AM Frog,
Thanks for the link to the TIME interview with Ahmadinejad. Some of the interesting description reminds me of another person. (see insert)
“Ahmadinejad (Bill Clinton) is a skilled, if slippery, debater. In his press conferences, he has shown himself to be a natural politician, gifted in the art of spin and misdirection.”
Over the course of the 45-minute interview, he was serious, smiling and cocky--evidence of a self-assurance that borders on arrogance”
-----------
I sort of expected him to say, “I never said, ‘...the Holocaust a “myth,” or, “ Israel should be “wiped away,” but he skipped over that.I don’t think I could stomach a debated between him and Bush. But then, I can’t stand to listen to Bush except in Spanish. (I had 2 years of Spanish so long ago that whatever he’s saying doesn’t bother me.)
------------------------------------------------------------
“Gwb” is shorthand for this administration.”
This administration is a continuation, and extension to new depths, of previous US policy.”I know you are convinced of the above, but suggest you are also subject to the effects in your following statement.
“Constant repetition of a few simple messages is the essence of selling, and PROPAGANDA...”
Yes, I agree we are all bombarded with hyperbolic indoctrination every day and need to guard against the eroding of fair judgment. The art of spin and misdirection are instantly broadcast with each event.
You didn’t comment on my questions regarding the media and Muslim’s reactions to the Pope’s statement.
Why is there no world outrage at THEIR behavior?
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 19, 2006 at 8:09 AM My take on events is to question very closely, everything, like you.
Like you, I start from somewhere else, so you find me really funny when I can believe the WORST of A government, and I find you misguided when you can believe the BEST . !
The MSM has an increasingly ignoble place in Society, so you could almost bet if they are unanimous, they are wrong.
This applies particularly to encouragement of any action right out of the ordinary, like WAR.
When I am damn sure the MSM is beating the wardrums, my antennae quiver, and I listen VERY carefully.
Presenting supposition or hypothesis as FACT on the NEWS seen by millions is no Accident when every time it is slanted ONE WAY ?
“Self-assurance bordering on arrogance”—might just be a RW reporter playing to his gallery ?
Winston and Theodore and Franklin and maybe even ‘Albert’ Einstein might have sounded arrogant at some times to some people ?
I sure have been taken in on various occasions in my life. I had great long-distance hopes of Tony Blair in 1997, and THEN, godhelpme, I actually listened to him on the radio from here in Frogland.
A Featherweight and a FRAUD .
I had naively thought that what I heard in the Press corresponded to some new reality, some change.
Listening to the little shit, it all became clear. Just another con-man. That was in 1997, a few months after the election, ------ AND I saw what most of the goddam rest of the world missed…
strange feeling.SO WTH, you have your gwb, frog has his Blair, and I DO find it almost IMPOSSIBLE to listen to mine for more than three seconds.
PSSSSSST . No comment on POPE blabla and so-called MUSLIM reaction, because I was deliberately NOT following it .
I gave away my TV at Xmas . I listen a bit to BBC radio4 and WorldService, and France Inter, and France Culture, but otherwise quite safe .
SO, Ole frog knows little about it, will maybe read up about it later, BUT refuses to take any sides due to lack of info.
Since I do not know what “their behaviour” has been, I cannot comment on lack of World Outrage in reaction to it .
Some Rentamob Demos, some idiot killing somebody somewhere, is not a very good reason for changing the foreign policy of any country.
Posted by frog on Sep 19, 2006 at 1:39 PM Dear WHATTHEHECK:
I am not one of those who believes that the military deliberately poisons people. They have some really intelligent people in the military, such as Norman Schwarzkopt (huge IQ), but also a lot of people who are not that smart. The military has done a lot of stupid things with radiation over the years.
I am sure the MD to zapped you for acne was good guy.
The sad thing is, kids are promised a bright future if they join up, you know, all the leadership of the pack, ARMY OF ONE stuff. Then many come back with their health compromised for the rest of their lives.
Sincerely,
Aspendougy
Posted by aspendougy on Sep 19, 2006 at 3:55 PM Frog, I am really happy for you, about your starting to produce your own vegetables and your purchase of an electric bike, they are truly wise steps. My grandmother was French and so is my grand-daughter, her father being a French man. I visited France for the first time when she was born, ten years ago, at Le Havre and then a couple of times more. I enjoyed la Normandie immensely, visited small farms most of the time and ate the best cheese and cherries ever. I believe there is hope in your country for people who think like you because there is a very ancient farming tradition and most people are not so contaminated by modern trends. I have also given up my TV, rather read or listen to music on the radio. Anyway, bad news always catch me up but through years of independent observation I have developed a kind of sixth sense to detect lies, Our experience in Latin America, with the School of the Americas in Panama which trained our military men on torture and “disappearence” of people who were “politically incorrect” according to the Empire standards was enough to know the harmful influence of USA in the zone. Funny, they insist on leading a war to spread democracy in the world, while they never hesitated for a minute in recognizing military dictatorships which kept overthrowing presidents elected by their people. Keep up with your activities, they are a hope for all. In case you wish to contact me sometime in the future, my e-mail is >m_etchart@yahoo.com>.Best of luck.
Posted by Maria on Sep 19, 2006 at 6:36 PM Frog & Maria,
I’ve been reading “On the Home Front” (Alistair Cooke — 1941), an editorial by Tony Blankley (Washington Times — now) and a small booklet, “Britain” (1943) picked up at an antique store.
Both Cooke and Blankley pointed out how long it took for people to realize to fully accept they were at war. Blankley is English and a naturalized US citizen and compares England during the “Phony War” period with us now.
In “Britain” there is an article which mentions the image of Americans was based on movies and novels of the time, so we were thought to be either cowboys or gangsters. With the speed and scope of satellite news I believe we are all getting sound bite imaging and a lot of distortion.
Ty aye yippee aye A, Youse guys!
-------------------
Also, I recently read, “The Life And Times of Andrew Jackson” (our seventh president). We may think politicians are brutal today, but some of the dirty tricks a rumors started back then are hard to top.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2006 at 7:18 AM Hey Heck
Blankley works for the “Reverend MOON”—dingaling, --- a little bell goin’ off ?
The Rightwing agenda of the WashTimes ,et al, is all about making people fearful-- makes them easier to manipulate.
It took me years before I realised that the Globalisas were at war with me and the rest of humanity , but now I know, and not gonna be distrackted by any IslamoNazi sideshows !
I remember you were going to be a cowboy when you grow up, but have you taken the lice into account ?
Yee Haw ! ... (scratch, scratch,)
Posted by frog on Sep 26, 2006 at 1:43 PM Frog,
I am aware of the ownership of the Washington Times. I guess avoiding any source which may present an alternative view would simplify life, but I would have to drop this one if I were to do that.
BTW—I thought it those easily insulted Muslims blowing up of harmless citizens at various points around the world which was supposed to scare us. Is there some other purpose?
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 27, 2006 at 3:01 PM HECK
I must confess I find your ‘source’ highly amusing and punchy, great fun.
Frederick Forsyth “Day of the Jackal” author, is great fun, too. And I’ve even heard him on the BBC-- same stuff. .
WHEN are you going to allow yourself to question your belief that all this talk about a Clash of Civilisations just MIGHT be something that certain people WANT you to believe ?
Knowing you to be so distrustful of ready-made solutions, I find it surprising you have swallered that one .
Maybe you’re just playing with me, with that stuff about “easily insulted muslims”, because I don’t take any of it seriously, so why should you ?
“"Harmless citizens"” get regularly blown up, nowadays, most of them by US/UK/Israel.
I’m looking forward to the day when you get to where I am. it is not “unpatriotic” to admit that one’s country’s policies are WRONG.
Posted by frog on Sep 27, 2006 at 3:37 PM Frog, don’t you find it surprising that any time you try to make a point about something somebody starts “intellectualizing” the subject, complicating matters with quotations, excerpts from books until the main purpose has completely vanished and no recognition of the Empire’s or corporations’ actions ever appears?
The Greek, who were no doubt masters in many branches of knowledge, invented the “sophists”, well-paid brains who moved about meddling in conversations and producing “sophisms” which sounded reasonable but diverted the purpose of the conversation until each party returned home in despair without getting at the root of things. Later on, in history, we had Macchiavelli, the Gatopardo and many others whose primary function was to distort thinbgs to a point where any proposed change was impossible. I think many of these sites are being the victims of modern sophists and it’s a waste of time to expect anything from them, except rising your blood pressure.
Posted by Maria on Sep 27, 2006 at 4:30 PM Frog,
I have to say I’m a bit disappointed in your recent replies. I realize English is not Maria’s first language, so perhaps what she sees as “intellectualizing” and “complicating matters” is due to that. I’m sure I would be completely lost trying to follow a discussion in Spanish even without needing to deal with sarcasm or levity.
But it seems you are truly unaware that the very thing you accuse me of is what you are doing. Buying into a single simple scenario. It may just be that instead of all spin or all religious conflict it is some of each. There have been enough different violent groups to have mixed motives, but there too many whose common denominator is the Muslim religion.
You choose to forget the many assorted attacks on other countries by Muslims (outside of the middle east) where the U.S. has no presence.
Don’t bother about their reaction to the pope’s invitation for a dialog between clergy form each religious group.You don’t take seriously the idea that they are “easily insulted” by the violent reactions to a few cartoons or a 700 year old quotation (which was clearly used as a reason for discussion). How would you classify those violent responses? Justified?
You chalk off any comments from sources you have predetermined to be “right wing.”The U.S. is in Iraq — and because of that you blame any and all deaths including the random IEDs on us?
We are also in Bosnia without UN backing — any problem with that?
Some are now saying we need to intervene in Darfur, but even though I believe it is a good idea, I doubt that if would get any support after the Iraq mess.I have been hearing comments for isolationism from my neighbors. Well, maybe they are right. Next time there is a Tsunami or famine maybe the victims should phone Chavez, Amahdinejad or Kofi Annan.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 28, 2006 at 1:50 PM Heck,
Closing down those hundreds of US military bases overseas sounds a good idea !
On the Pope, and History, read Uri Avnery. an example hereMaria
Agreed !
Posted by frog on Sep 29, 2006 at 1:35 AM Frog,
OK, I read the Avnery piece. Did you read the pope’s actual speech?
Regardless of Avnery’s opinion as to the motive for the speech and the reference, the violent reaction (as with the Danish cartoons) is inexcusable and indicative of what you referred to as a “Clash of Civilizations”.What about all those attacks unrelated to the U.S.? Why do you ignore them? They are certainly some sort of clash. What do you see as their cause and purpose?
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 29, 2006 at 2:18 PM HECK , WTF !
NO ! I did not read the Pope’s speech.
VERY VERY often I change channels on the Radio, when I hear PROPAGANDA coming on. It may be the BBC , and I switch to the frogs, or vice versa.
As usual when both are propagandising, I SWITCH off .
Whenever someone says something is “inexcusable” I look around for my nuclear umbrella !
A few thousand drongos (thats OZ talk for nongs ) Proselitysing and Brainwashing, and Demonstrating around the globe is NOT enough to get ole Frog excited about a War of The “ Worlds” .
HIC, I meant...... War of “Civilisations “ !
Anyone who has looked seriously at the history of the Normans in Sicily, ( they came from just up the road , here ), and the co-existence between the Three Faiths, knows full well that faiths CAN co-exist, and that when there are elements looking for War between them, the basis is always in very ‘ base’ Politics.
So, old HECK, stop wondering WHY none of ypur Reps responded to your correspondence over the past twenty years.
FORGET that little detail. JUST hate those “muslims”.
Posted by frog on Oct 2, 2006 at 2:02 PM Frog,
You must be having a bad day.
I don’t have to hate someone to see their behavior as inexcuseable. Do you? Possibly this is so, but then if you are simply avoiding any and all information you are predisposed to find distasteful you don’t need to evaluate it.
You may not realize it, but this attitude makes for a great Christian fundamentalist — so whatever you do stay away from TV evangelists. Oh, I forgot you gave away the TV to avoid poluting your already made up mind.
Kind of ends any further discussions, I guess.Just go back to your cabbage patch. The U.S. military will probably come to your aid again in this century as in the past.
WTH
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 3, 2006 at 8:07 AM You forgot the “cheese-eating surrender-monkey” insults used by the the other Trolls.
Back to troll-school mister Heck.
Posted by frog on Oct 5, 2006 at 1:44 PM Glad to see the old gang is back. Wonder where everyone has been. And why no one is lending their old pal “cabbie” a hand on the neo-con lexicon thread. I’ve having a heck of a time with two of the worst trolls on this blogsite. Check it out!!
Anyhow it is interesting to see the Bushies downplay their usual “stay the course” messege right at mid-term elections. The civl war over there is raging and who ever thought that we’d be responsible for killing nearly three percent of the total Iraqi population. This is quite an achievement. These war criminals have accomplished what even the evil Saddam could not over his two and one half decades of tyranny. As the post invasion Iraqi death toll slowly approaches the 700,000 mark we can be proud of our genocidal accomplishments and the swelling of Halliburton’s and Bechtel’s profit margins which were single handedly saved by this vile war.
Bush and his ugly regime have ruined this country and the world.
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