As a controversy, Bill Cosby’s Come on People: On the Path from Victims to Victors is hardly controversial. The new book, co-authored with Harvard psychiatrist Alvin F. Poussaint, is an old-fashioned, conservative cultural critique that offers an eat-your-vegetables, teach-your-children, pull-your-pants-up polemic. In 2004, Cosby roiled the racial waters when he blasted the pathology of black failure at an NAACP dinner… return to article
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Reader Comments (44)Page 1 of 1 pages“The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting,” he ranted at the stone-faced crowd of America’s black elite. “They are buying things for their kids—$500 sneakers for what? And won’t spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics!”
This is not exactly a disagreement, but rather an expansion on Cosby’s wisdom — it applies to all of us regardless of race.
Columbine, and now the copycats, are not about black kids from poor families, but about too many people are NOT parenting. I realize some one parent families are not so by choice, but in the past there was often still more cohesion and caring which overcame the absence of the second parent.
When being a mother was not considered something less a career than a remote located job, temptation had less opportunity. When fathers imposed and enforced rules with a Cosby-style consistency each child knew it was out of loving concern.
There are more important “things” we can give our children than expensive toys and lessons. Much of it comes from what they see US view as important in our lives — career? acquiring things? status? — or more enduring values?
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 15, 2007 at 7:34 AM This article was very unexpected. And very nice. Well done.
Posted by wolf on Nov 15, 2007 at 9:30 AM Yes. Incredibly refreshing. Cosby’s words are indeed a no-brainer; nothing more than simple common sense.
What’s so difficult to understand is the negative reaction from so many “black leaders”.
I guess not so much when you realize they are empowered by their fellow blacks relying on them and/or government, and not on themselves.
Following Cosby’s advice makes it less likely they’ll be needed or even wanted anymore.
If Cosby’s had been the prevalent message for the past several decades instead of Jackson’s, I’m quite confident the state of the black community and race relations in general would be vastly better.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 15, 2007 at 3:23 PM Washington, like every other critic who has written this same article (there have been many), writes, “Cosby’s critics excoriated him for delivering his rant from an elitist ivory tower without offering solutions. They argue that the black poor are the helpless victims of white supremacy and institutional racism. In other words, it’s not their fault—the deck is stacked just too high.”
How about a quote? Or even a single example of a “critic” who has said that the black poor are “helpless victims,” etc.? Cosby’s tirade was a caricature responding to a caricature. Where is this phantom, mainstream attack on white supremacy as the root of all evil? I don’t often come across that kind of opinion in the major media. And besides, what conclusion would Washington come to in the end, if Cosby is right? That poor black people are just depraved? Or is it all poor people? Where is this line of argument going?
This is a dead, stupid horse you’re beating. Leave this kind of hack work to the Juan Williamses of the world.
Posted by Melocoton on Nov 15, 2007 at 10:36 PM Bill Cosby Is a comedian.Who cares what he says about black people.He is blaming the victims of white supremacy.He is not challenging white Racist System .Whatever Black people do in the this System we will Not Be excepted as american Citizen. We Could Be The model citizen in this society this White Nation will never excepted as a citizen. We are Nothing But x Slaves In This White Nation.The Most Cor rupt Racist Nation In The History of The World.
Posted by nat turner on Nov 16, 2007 at 8:24 AM Melocoton,
I totally agree with Cosby’s philosophy and with Wolf’s and Natalie’s appraisal of Ms Washington’s article. As for the “helpless victims” excuse, if you lived through the 1960s you either chose to ignore this view or were on some other planet. This was responsible for the “War on Poverty” , Affirmative Action, increasing payments for additional baby production — the whole attitude of nothing is an individual’s responsibility only a “right.”
Regardless of race public aid should only extend to emergency situations we cannot guaranty happiness, only the right to pursue it. Parents need to accept the responsibility to teach their own kids to care for themselves and make a positive contribution to society to the best of their ability.
The 1964 Civil Rights Act made it clear that discrimination is unacceptable for any reason, for or against any individual or group by any individual or group. This is a clearly identified goal and obviously not an accomplished fact, but further elaboration is unneeded — just enforcement.
FYI: Interesting you should mention Juan Williams — I remember his comment on the McLaughlin Group immediately post-Oklahoma City bombing — “This is a typical example of the angry white male in his natural state.”
The other panelists looked shocked, but nothing was ever made of his outburst. Like many of us at times, he probably regreted having thoughtlessly said that and should not have been vilified for it. We all need to maintain more understanding and forgiveness of human faiilings.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 16, 2007 at 8:58 AM I really despise anyone who has the “blame whitey” mentality. It has been a collective effort ever since the Civil war to bring equality to blacks, and while there was certainly a white resistance, our society has slowly but surely evolved to a point where white-on-black racists are no more common than the opposite. You want someone to blame? Blame those with the greatest influence on black culture. Blame whatever new ridiculously named rapper is glorifying everything that is wrong with black culture - using drugs, dealing drugs, killing, and non-committed sex. And then when that non-committed sex results in a baby, and that baby has no daddy to tell that child what it really means to be a man, or how to respect herself, that child looks again to this cancerous pop-culture so they know how to “act,” and the destructive cycle starts over yet again.
Posted by bgzee on Nov 16, 2007 at 9:48 AM How about a quote? Or even a single example of a “critic” who has said that the black poor are “helpless victims,”
The post below yours seems to provide an example.
Or, just turn on MTV for a few minutes. Then tell me those gangsta rappers wouldn’t react to Cosby’s message with hostility. He’s a threat to their very bread and butter.
What’s most sad about the current angry victim culture so perfectly illustrated by rappers and Nat above, is that it’s caused much of the rest of society to return the anger by tuning the issue of race out completely.
When black people proclaim any kind of achievement or education to be “uncool’, because that’s what white people do, it’s very hard to even care anymore.
At least Cosby genuinely still does. Good for him. He deserves NOTHING but praise.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 16, 2007 at 10:08 AM As a Southsider living among Black Chicagoans of various income levels, I can attest that Mr. Cosby has stereotyped low income people unfairly. Most low income people I KNOW (as opposed to read studies and reports about) are honest, hard working, tax paying citizens and dedicated parents whom I’m glad to have as neighbors. Mr. Cosby should redirect his criticism at those individuals who seek to gain at the expense of others, those people who want something for nothing, who feel entitled to certain benefits because of who they are. All communities have plenty of these types of people, not just Black communities. Believe me, most low income Black people don’t have these values, they in fact feel just the opposite. All most Black folks want, low income or otherwise, is to get a fair return for their investment and to not have so many obstacles to dodge in their pursuit of happiness. For instance, when you pay your rent you should expect your (usually out of state investor) landlord to be providing up to standard housing; your rent pays property taxes that go toward government services that should include providing for the general health, safety and well being of the public; and institutions that promote the communities potential. Black neighborhoods generally are not receiving these services at the same level as other neighborhoods for a variety of reasons with race being the main one, and if you grow up and live in a Black neighborhood you’ve been cheated out of your investment. Mr. Cosby should address the high income and corporate communities who don’t pay their fair share of taxes, who gain at the expense of others, who invest very little outside of their business interest but reap huge returns from “the marketplace” and feel its their right to do so because they’re stockholders or their business interest drives the economy. In chastising low income Blacks Mr. Cosby is taking the path of least resistance, taking the easy way out, something people associate with a ghetto mentality.
Posted by theloneous on Nov 16, 2007 at 12:13 PM This is so funny. Bill Cosby mister upper crust is telling those on the lower rung they have failed black people. It is not the upper class who have ran from their poorer brothers and sister to live in the more affluent white subburbs. Taken their money, skills and influence away from those whom need it most. In every major city there are sports franchises with high paid Business people, Athletes or Entertainers who live and give their tax dollars which affects schools and businesses opportunities to the subburbs. Tax dollars for schools are based upon income it is not distributed evenly across the board. Those with more get more. If one is taking the Black hip hop artist tack one must acknowledge that musicians do not control the business the business is run by business people. Every musical style has a broad musical spectrum there are conscience rappers. thug rappers, Christian rappers and so on what is played on the air is not decided by the people who listen or the artists but is dictated by those in power. One can not place the blame totally on the artists they are not in the power positition. As far as 500 dollar sneakers who is being used as the primary selling face for that business model. Bill have anything to say to Michael Jordan about social conscience? No it’s those at the bottem with the least who are to blame. I’m sorry but IMO it is the Middle and upper class who have abandoned thier lower income family and then blame them for where they are at. The head is responsible for the direction of the body not the feet.
Posted by deeprince on Nov 16, 2007 at 12:38 PM There is some truth to Cosby’s rant - even if does unfairly single out people by race. Still, it implies that the poorer classes just aren’t trying as hard as they should. Somehow the successful people deserve their success and the disenfranchised deserve their disenfranchisement.
OK, not every disadvantaged youth stays that way, and not every privileged youth stays that way, but the percentages show that it is environment that affects this more than a person’s character. People do need to take responsibility for themselves. Welfare dependence does cause deep problems, but instead of chastising the disadvantaged from a position of moral superiority, how about trying to truly understand what is going on and truly help improve the situation. Don’t forget that ill-thought-out welfare is thrust upon the disadvantaged by people who have the education and energy to know better. You can hardly blame desperate and ill-educated people for becoming trapped by it.
Encouraging welfare dependence causes more harm than good, but that doesn’t mean there is nothing that can be done to help.
#1 No material hand-outs.
#2 Ensure everyone has access to excellent health-care (physical and mental).
#3 Ensure everyone has access to excellent education.
#4 Ensure everyone has access to non-demeaning employment.If people want $500 sneakers and a pimped out ride - fine, but they have to work for it. If they need treatment for kidney disease, of course they should get it for free.
There is no excuse for an economy as wealthy and powerful as the USA to not do this for all its people - other than elitist, short-sighted, selfish greed of course. Ultimately it would make everyone richer - in every sense.
Posted by xoctor on Nov 16, 2007 at 4:03 PM Deeprince,
“Bill Cosby mister upper crust is telling those on the lower rung they have failed black people.”
No. Not so. Check out what he’s saying again. He is telling people they need to take care of themselves. This is not a racial issue — that’’s just a cop-out to avoid taking responsibility for your life. More people of whatever color are doing this all the time.
The founders didn’t say, “ Somebody should do this for me.” They pledged their “lives, fortunes and sacred honor” to build a nation.
What is it with this country today? We so often hear, “They should do something about… (fill in your issue or problem of choice here.)”
• The price of gas is too high! — So drive less and the supply will increase and price will fall.
• Kids are dropping out of school! — Instill respect for education by example.• They don’t pay me enough! — People get paid in direct proportion to what others value place on their work.
Yeah, I know, easier said than done. Nobody said life is easy. But look around — Why are people trying to sneak into the U.S.? The majority of people in the world are worse off than almost anyone here. Instead of “wishing” you could have it all, start with what you have.
----------------------------It will not get easier — it WILL get tougher.
Our economy and the world economy are making a major readjustment due to the ease of shifting work to the lowest cost globally. The lowest rungs are getting higher and harder to reach. Individuals and unions alike must give up cushy benefits — that’s not a threat it is a fact. Economic inequality is increasing — that is also a fact. Governments are not able to fix it, but they can sure make it worse. (And have been.)
----------------------------When I got out of the army in 1959 I went to work in the art department of a medium sized company. I made minimum wage ($1.75/hr) and after learning all I could on there, and being told my $2.61/hr was all I could expect in a “non-productive job” (their classification for not a machinist) I took a pay cut to work where what I did was considered “productive” and learn more.
When I knew what I could do that would sell, I went into business for myself and earned a good living for about thirty years as a graphic artist. Then, at age fifty along came computers and globalization. Even though I learned to do everything digitally my specialty dropped in value in the eyes of U.S. business — cheaper became the major criteria.
A good, broad, general education is now more important than ever. From here on people must be ready to change jobs to whatever has value in the marketplace. This is so regardless of skin color, regardless of who is in office and only you care about your personal problems — don’t expect the government to do it for you no matter what the candidates say. Be your own financial advisor. Take care of yourself so you can take care of those closest to you and contribute to society rather than depend on it.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 17, 2007 at 7:43 AM I am more deeply concerned that the only solution to the problems facing the descendants of America’s slaves was not even mentioned. That only solution is Reparations. The reaction most readers evoked when they read the word Reparations is predictable. But, the term reparations will not seem so dreadful or far-fetched when black people recognize why America’s official residence of its president has the name it has. (It certainly was not named after some American Hero with the last name “White.") Dr. Cosby, Dr. Poussaint and others who have such a warped perception of reality and race in America do more harm to blacks when they, the blacks, tell their children that they could become president of these United States or that Obama stands a good chance of winning the U.S. Presidency. What tomfoolery. Perhaps Cosby and his followers are yet to notice how overwhelmingly white the leaders are in local, state and national units of government, or even worse, they fail to appreciate the enormous role government plays in the lives of individuals. This is true whether you are in a country either like the U.S. or Ghana. Afterall, it is not some new phenomenon that elected officials, first and foremost, attend to the needs and concerns of their predominate constituency who voted them into office. Until the damages from slavery are repaired, the blacks in America will NOT see substantive changes in future generations.
Posted by Jeff Savage on Nov 17, 2007 at 1:08 PM Jeff Savage
I hope you are joking about the White House. In fact I can’t take any of this very seriously. Why would anyone think for a moment that any dollar amount as “reparations” would solve anything regarding racial discrimination?
The one thing where I connect is your assumed reaction to the idea of reparations. None of us living now had anything to do with slavery. Many of us didn’t even have ancestors living in the U.S. during that period.
I will not accept responsibility for any except my own actions.
I’m in Illinois and I voted for Obama in the primary which got him started in a political career — he just might win. If you are indeed serious in your comments I doubt if that would do much to change your attitude. I don’t think any reparation payment would either.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 17, 2007 at 1:36 PM The overriding point is, whatever your skin color, as soon as you take refuge in thinking that it’s someone else’s duty to make sure your life is fulfilling instead of your own, you shrink the likelihood of it ever happening by orders of magnitude. There’s also a huge risk of sinking into moral cowardice, of losing any self-respecting gumption you might otherwise have been able to preserve if you had fought off the self-abasement that results from regarding your life as anything other than a unique, precious, never-to-be-diminished privilege to have been born into. Even if you have to cope with some shit, maybe even a boxcar-load of shit, that’s what your life is, a privilege. Don’t allow opposing thoughts to take root.
Others may even be to blame for shit you’ve had to deal with. But when it comes to walking in your shoes, thinking inside your head, working with your own hands, raising your own kids, well, you either show the right stuff or you don’t. It’s our actions as thinking people that make the difference, and excuses are like assholes: everyone’s got one, but no one wants to hear about it. You either have the balls/eggs to make this life of yours mean something beyond a tarnished bunch of faddish old accessories, by fulfilling duties that carry forward into a better future, or you’re just another perennial “customer”, buying trashy trinkets and oversimplified ideologies year after stupifying year, enriching those craftier and less honorable than you.
It’s not the power of the punch that hits you that is important; it’s the power of the punch you can take and come back from, injured perhaps but still resolute, that really spells out who you are. That’s not a racial issue, it’s an issue faced by everyone who isn’t born into silver-spoon privilege, and in fact even a lot of them.
“Reparations” paid to people because they are of some race, as paid by others who are of some other races, would be a thorough-going reinforcement of the exact mindset we should not foster. They would diminish personal responsibility in favor of race-based entitlement, they would punish today’s people for the crimes of people who are dead, and they would put a price tag, a low one, on the suffering of millions.
Anyone can educate herself, anyone can make himself strong and adaptable, anyone can choose to be honorable instead of pathetic. No one can give a thing like that to you, you have to make it happen yourself. As soon as you stop seeing that, believing instead in cheap progress or luck or that you’re somehow owed happiness by another, you commit the fundamental error.
That external locus of control is unworthy of anyone who isn’t a child. You might as well literally chop your feet and hands off with an axe, if you’re going to think that way, because psychologically you’re doing the equivalent already if you cling to the “someone else’s job” mindset.
There’s excellence, and then there’s mediocrity. The former is a choice for decisive action, the latter is the slack, ignoble default.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 18, 2007 at 11:26 PM “....they would punish today’s people for the crimes of people who are dead, and they would put a price tag, a low one, on the suffering of millions.”
Excellent point! (among many excellent points)
Receiving reparations would be almost morbidly disrespectful of those who actually would have been deserving of them.
I doubt they would approve—they would understand how ultimately damaging reparations would be to the individual receiving them.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 19, 2007 at 10:31 AM I agree with every word written by Kuya in the above post and would only add the following post script.
“There will never be true equality for black people until they love their own children more than they hate the white man.”
Posted by wakeup on Nov 19, 2007 at 10:35 AM It’s clear to me that Mr. Cosby is operating out of a deep love. It’s not his responsibility to “come up with solutions.” That responsibility resides with everyone, especially those who’ve never exercised theirs. That he would be so bold as to provoke this dialogue is in itself a tremendous gift: he could have chosen to avoid controversy, not make waves, and just watch from his position of privilege.
Posted by trippin on Nov 19, 2007 at 8:16 PM Whattheheck,
You wrote “The founders didn’t say, “ Somebody should do this for me.” They pledged their “lives, fortunes and sacred honor” to build a nation.” Didn’t they decide to have someone else do it for them when they brought all the slaves to “build” America for them? So please show me someone who hasn’t gotten rich off the backs of free African labor in those days.
Also, for wakeup, there will never be true equality until white people stop wanting the status quo of white privilege and blacks just decide to take what they need and stop waiting for the white man to “allow” us to have something. When was the last time you had 10 job interviews and pray tell how many of those interviewers were NOT white? I bet 99% of them were.
The problem is, is that you have so many people telling lower income blacks to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they don’t have boots. The only way to get ahead is if you can get a JOB. And we know that getting a job is a lot like working in the big house, not everybody on the plantation can be the house Negro. So we need to understand that white people control the employment sector so lets not act as if they don’t.
You can get every degree known to man and if that one person doing the hiring (usually white person in my experience) decides NO to you, NOW WHAT? The next job and so on and so forth. I know it is unpopular to blame white people but, if the personnel department fits…
I am totally offended that people would sit here and accuse poor blacks of not caring for or loving their kids because of crime. White children commit crimes as well, is that from a lack of love? Black on black crime stats, why don’t any of you tell me the white on white crime stats. You will be surprised at what you find.
So lets put these stupid stereotypes to bed and start looking at the BIG picture. Everyone wants to PRETEND that racism has ended because a few laws were passed. There are laws against murder and that hasn’t ended has it?
Posted by theblacksentinel on Nov 21, 2007 at 5:02 PM Blacksentinel,
When I quoted from the Declaration of Independence my point was that the founders were willing to put everything on the line and not seeking guarantees, or for someone else to do it for them. They were a representative mix of the population, but putting EVERYTHING at risk to gain freedom from British oppression was a great equalizer.
At this time they were proposing the Colonies should be independent States, so “… that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.”
Later, some states chose slavery, some did not. Some signers were slave holders, some were not. Jefferson and Washington were, but I have never heard of Franklin being a slave holder.
To say that everyone since that time who has gotten rich, did so due to the earlier practice of using slave labor is totally preposterous. It is like saying everyone will get smallpox who is born after an epidemic in one city 200 years ago.
My only samples of what may have been racial discrimination were few and brief and from individuals to whom I was temporarily subordinate.
Sgt. Shepherd, who happened to be black was taking head-count at the mess hall —
“You didn’t shave today did you, soldier?” “Yes, I did, Sergeant.”
“Are you calling me a liar, Private?”
“No, Sergeant.”I was sent back to shave three times that day. I had a similar experience with a very small black 2nd Lt. later. (I am tall and white.)
They may have been discriminating racially, (or due to size difference ) or just being chicken shit. There were white NCOs and officers who also gave me a hard time, so I can’t say for sure what their motives were, but the military is also a good equalizer.
If you read my earliest comments I was equally critical of all parents whose kids commit crimes due to the lack of parenting Cosby blames.
The Big Picture? OK.
Human beings all have more in common than different — if we were blind we might all notice that is so.
One of the common denominators is that life is not fair and life is not always easy. The founders of the U.S. knew that, but were also guilty of perpetuating some of it — as are we all.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 22, 2007 at 8:19 AM blacksentinel says......"until whites quit wanting the status quo of white privilege and blacks just decide to take what they need and stop waiting for the white man to “allow” us to have something”
Take what you want by force as opposed to working for it?
Are you saying that having a work ethic is a wrong value promulgated by the white man to keep us down?
There is a significantly higher sheer number of whites living in poverty than poor black individuals in this country. Please explain to me, blacksentinel, how “white privilege,” has served to make them better off than poor blacks?
Should these poor whites also just take what they need? Or must they stay in poverty because their skin color is wrong? And do they deserve it because their ancestors may have lived in a slave owning society?
People who want their children to be successful, see to it that their children can successfully negotiate the “majority” culture in any country and work within the system to their advantage. They do not confront with an, “I will destroy you because you owe me something,” attitude.
Black students who excel in school are too often socially ostracized by black peers for, “acting white,” and black people who know how to negotiate the majority culture are often called, “Uncle Toms,” for not in essence promoting anarchy.
Perhaps blacksentinel can explain to me whether immigrants of color (especially black immigrants) who come here with, “no boots,” but who, in very significantly proportionally higher numbers than native blacks, become successful both as individuals and as communities, are victims of white “status quo” oppression.
The attitude that blacks should just, “...decide to take what they need and stop waiting for the white man to “allow” us to have something,” pretty much sums up the underlying reason for white flight. For the average person, safety and security are much more pressing issues anytime than hanging around just to feel superior.
Bottom line: it is much more about class than race. And outside of inheriting wealth in this country there is only one other legal path to becoming more affluent and climbing the “class ladder.” It is called hard work, especially hard work enhanced by education and a value system that promotes delay of gratification in favor of long term goals.
Cosby and Poussaint, being black and having worked their way out of humble, racially segregated origins during much tougher times than we face, know this. Their book addresses every single objection that anyone could possibly have to people taking responsibility for their own lives and their own actions both individually and as a community.
I have actually read, “Come On People.” Have you blacksentinel?
Again, I state, “There will be no true racial equality, until black people love their children more than they hate the white man.”
Posted by wakeup on Nov 23, 2007 at 10:47 AM Now take Mr. Cosby’s comments one step further and apply them to the American Indian. Even with the boom in casino gambling and all that goes along with it, good and bad, the whining continues. Instead of pulling themselves up, using the money to get an education and a decent life, some prefer to wallow in their misery. Don’t they realize they first need to quit feeling like the powerless victim in order to move forward? It is no longer 1890 and Wounded Knee is long over.
I see this victim mentality every day and I truly sympathize with their history but wallowing in it is not going to change their life for the better - education and hard work are.
Posted by ezloving on Nov 23, 2007 at 11:59 AM Well Wakeup,
The practice of white privilege works in this way, given the equal circumstances of a black and a white person, the white will have MORE opportunities than the black person. If that is not true then why my friend are whites making 58% more than their black counterpart. Yep, that sounds equal. Anyway, if that poor white person were to clean up and attempt to get a job, I am sure that they would have a leg up on the black applicant.
Where are you getting this ostracizing of blacks who do well in school? Is this something you’ve seen first hand, or is this more regurgitated propaganda. I did very well in school as well as my siblings, NONE of us were ostracized in our predominantly black schools. In fact there were tons of black kids doing well with out this ostracizing that you speak of. My son right now goes to an ALL black inner city school that is fairly rough and he is not ostracized one bit. Anyway that is neither here nor there.
I am NOT in anyway promoting taking such as in STEALING, that is shear stupidity to think such a thing. When I say TAKE, I mean do our own thing in our own community. That means that we should have our own companies hiring our own people etc. I am sure you will have a problem with that. Yet have no problem with ALL white business, which yes there are a ton of them out there.
Also, You can talk of the white poor, as you can find many instances of people living contrary to the majority. Such as there were many blacks during slavery who were not being subjugated and may have owned their own slaves etc. Does this now make slavery OK? Of course not. So just because some whites are living contrary to the majority does not make white privilege OK as well.
I as well as a lot of blacks who despise the system know how to transverse the system as that is the only way to make a living in this society. Does this make the system OK? Please, it is high time for people to stop saying “hey this is how things are, so deal with it.” Just because the status quo is one way does not mean that it doesn’t need an overhaul. And no white flight isn’t because blacks are taking or doing so much more crime. Since if you look at the REAL numbers whites far outdo blacks in that arena. Look at the numbers please.
Anyway, if that is all you have to say that it is OK to subjugate a people to poverty then it doesn’t really matter what I say, you have already agreed that a group of people are poor because they did it to themselves. That is shameful. Yet, I am down in the trenches daily seeing people try to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and I see the racism first hand. I also know that people like you will deny that racism is still being exercised in employment these days. So, it is a waste of my time to bother trying to convince you of anything. If you feel that it is blacks fault that they are behind then that is your view and you are entitled to it. But, don’t bother trying to convince me of it.
Posted by theblacksentinel on Nov 26, 2007 at 10:29 AM Hey ezloving,
Now that Exxon Mobile is making billions in profit why don’t people all just stop crying and whining about it. Just move on and get over it. Stop acting like the victim it’s over and gas prices aren’t going to go down, geez. You know those casinos are just pouring money right into the pockets of ALL Native Americans right?
Sure we took your land, and killed most of your people but, it’s over so just get over it and look on the bright side. You can get an education and if you just do what your told you too can get a good job in corporate America. It seems to me that there is a lot of whining going on from ALL races.
Hey, a black man got hired and I didn’t so that is reverse discrimination. I am sure that he got the job because of affirmative action, and I am sure that he doesn’t have the qualifications I have. Yep, ezloving everyone other than whites whine over what is considered trivial. Why don’t you stop whining about whatever the Native people are doing.
Everyone sees things that affects their lives and the lives of their people. Yet, pointing out the rhetoric and unfair biased treatment means that those people want a pity party and are just whining or crying about old crap. Well if the problems that plagued people in the past hasn’t stopped, then they have a right to complain. I guess being in a position of the “majority race” puts a certain luster on life.
Posted by theblacksentinel on Nov 26, 2007 at 10:40 AM Whattheheck,
When I say that everyone got rich off of slavery, that means that at the time slavery was an institution and when the plantations were making money hand over fist, every other business got trickle down money. If that isn’t clear enough, think of it this way: Plantation owner gets money for doing nothing, he then buys clothing, furniture, incidentals and anything else you can think of. So, by getting money for nothing, he had plenty of money to throw around to other business that might not have owned slaves.
These other business owners did get to pass that slave money down to their descendants. Which continued to be handed down and that is inherent wealth. What pray tell did the slaves have to hand down to their descendants? Oh yeah, nothing. So when people say that the playing field is now equal, how did that happen when did things even themselves out.
It seems to me that blacks start from zero seeing as they don’t have inherent wealth, where whites at least have something to pass along. Whether that be land, money, valuables etc. So yes they did get rich off the backs of slaves. Not necessarily money, could be land, buildings that were built. Goods and services that were not paid for grows wealth for the ones who don’t pay wouldn’t you say?
Posted by theblacksentinel on Nov 26, 2007 at 10:48 AM Bill cosby is an entertainer. Who cares about his opinion? You don’t ask entertainers their views on complex ideas about politics and oppression. Get real. Do we ask plumbers to explain abortion rights? This is sick. Of course, Cosby is correct; black people are doing some terrible things to each other; but that is a symptom of something more wicked, something called national oppression. Black people have no control over their daily lives, in all manners of speaking, so what does he expect? Why won’t he challenge the status quo? He has money; he’s insulated. He won’t. He knows what he is doing; he is telling the slave that it is his fault he is a slave. What a crock !
Posted by isometruman on Nov 26, 2007 at 3:24 PM People on this list serve keep talking about whining; what a crock! No one is whining. Facts are facts. The reason black folks are behind is because of slavery. This is a fact. The average white family has a net worth of over $100,000. For blacks, it is less than $20,000. If this were equal, I guarantee you; we would have no need for white folks and their world. We would, as Langston Hughes suggested, make a world. We did but it is a world poisoned by economic inequality. We could uplift our kids and many other children if only the wealth disparity did not exist. But it does and it is because of national oppression.
all who doubt this, read this article - it will make you understand that the problem is not poor blacks; the problem is economic inequality across the board.
http://law.wustl.edu/Journal/20/p53Shapirobookpages.pdf
Posted by isometruman on Nov 26, 2007 at 3:31 PM Blacksentinel,
When my father’s father came to the U.S. in 1900 from Sweden he had literally nothing. When my father-in-law came here at age 19 in 1922 he had nothing. (His brother wasn’t so lucky —he died in WW1 as an American and proud to be one.)
Yes, they were white, (score one for skin color) but also discriminated against. My grandfather was a farmer in Sweden, but the eldest son in those days inherited, so he came here. He could not buy land to farm, went to work in the coal mines and died young.
My father-in-law got work cleaning muck from the bilges of ore boats in Chicago and went to night school to learn English and become a citizen. Then he worked at various hard labor — farm hand, (before machinery) wood cutter, (hand saws) and finally found factory work after the depression (in WW2) where he became a machinist.
Neither of these two men could even speak English when they got off the boat (score one for the former slave). Neither ever got any government aid of any kind (one for the former slave’s descendent) and would be insulted at the idea of retributions for any perceived slights.
You don’t like what you see as less than equal status, but if not for your slave ancestry you would be in Africa — would you prefer that.
I have been lucky and know it. If not for the hard work of my family before me I would be far less well off. I hope my kids will be better off than I.
As long as you think in terms of “my people” and “your people” you will remain outside of the majority of U.S. society looking in. No one can change that except you. This is what Cosby is saying.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 27, 2007 at 9:25 AM isometruman, theblacksentinel and and others - OK, so what do you propose to make things better? If reparations is on your agenda, who pays and who gets paid?
From my pov, race is just a non-issue. My own proposal would be to keep the estate tax (currently set to expire!) and increase taxes on those who are doing well economically (say those with family incomes of $100 K or more, with steeper rates as incomes rise into the millions and beyond). Use some of this money to benefit all low income citizens, regardless of race.
This proposal avoids the problems associated with reparations, such as 1) why should rich blacks get “extra” income/wealth from poor whites; 2) why should whites (really non-blacks) whose ancestors were not even in the US have to pay reparations; 3) who should receive reparations (should descendants of white slaves get reparations/ should blacks who came here after slavery get reparations, etc); and 4) why should anyone receive compensation for events that took place not to them but to their distant ancestors generations ago (isn’t this what much of the fighting is about in the Middle East/)?
One further problem with reparations is that when you *give* too much wealth to an individual, it damages them. See the “winners” of lotteries, for instance. Their lives almost always get worse, not better. Plus waiting around for a handout that may never come is also destructive. . .
Hoping for a reasoned response.
Posted by wolf on Nov 27, 2007 at 9:40 AM I agree 100% with whattheheck - same background - one of my great grandparents’ kids died on the boat on the way over and they dumped the body overboard. They lived in a little tarpaper shack. Half her children died before reaching six months old but the ones that lived were strong - one even lived beyond 100. My great grandpa became a logger for a company that paid his way here (indentured servant) and became an American citizen after learning to speak a very broken English. My great grandma never learned English and wouldn’t let it be spoken in her presence. Neither of them ever learned to drive, had a telephone or television set. When I was a kid I still remember the stark poverty they lived in but would never in their wildest dreams accept charity outside the family. However, at least in America, you had a chance. Unless you were the oldest in your family, you had little chance back there in Sweden.
My grandma spoke and wrote fluent Swedish and English. My mother could speak Swedish. I, sadly, understand a little Swedish but can’t speak it. The point is, we’re not sitting around now crying in our lutafisk about how awful our great grandpa and his family were treated when they came to this country. The Norwegians hate them, the Germans too as did the locals. Each generation did better than the last and I’m proud to say that some of their descendents, myself included, have become millionaires - but, my god, we worked 14 and 15 hour days for years.
On my way to work this morning I saw one of my cousins’ family name displayed on a semi coming out of Minnesota where they have a huge fleet. Their grandpa started out with a mule and a wagon.
People who sit around crying about Wounded Knee and slavery are using that as an excuse to sit on their butts. Wake up! You are only keeping yourself back. This is a wonderful country where with hard work and a little luck you can be whatever you want to be.
Posted by ezloving on Nov 27, 2007 at 10:07 AM I’m white, but I moved to an area where I’m a minority. At first I was a little worried about “reverse racism”, but soon realized that it was my attitude, not my skin color, that was important.
I’ve had no problem working with and becoming friends with the rest of the majority population. Others who display arrogance or superiority continue to struggle, however.
We had two black people work with us. One was angry, resentful, and always acted like everyone owed him special treatment, apparently because he was black. The other was positive, cheerful, and had a can-do attitude. The former sputtered, failed and had to be let go, and the latter thrived and moved up the ladder.
Society has little patience left for those who cling to this notion that events long ago are justification for their current negativity and anger. I believe that the vast majority of white people, or any people for that matter, are largely color-blind. They are not, nor should they be, attitude and behavior blind.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 27, 2007 at 1:41 PM “That means that we should have our own companies hiring our own people etc. I am sure you will have a problem with that.”
I have absolutely no problem with that....and neither do Cosby and Poussaint. ( or Malcolm X years ago)
You really have not read, “Come On, People!” have you?
Posted by wakeup on Nov 27, 2007 at 10:39 PM I agree with both Natalie’s and Awkeup’s views on ownership, working with and attitudes.
I find it much easier to accept people I have come to know as individuals and find my prejudices kick in when thinking in generalities.
This goes for race, gender, sexual preference, political philosophy or whatever label we tack on. What really bothers me is when anyone expects special concessions due to their own choice of label.
An example: About a decade ago the minister at the church we attended was approached with a request to institute a gay and lesbian service in the chapel while the regular services were held in the sanctuary.
His response (which I totally agreed with) was that they were welcome to join us at any time, but there would be no “special” category for anyone.
I am fed up with all the blather about the need for DIVERSITY. We have become so diverse we are becoming the Diverse States of America. Fragmentation by race, sex, age, income, language may well be the downfall of our nation.
Just listen to the media and political advisors talk about candidate X and the need to appeal to all the special interests — no wonder we get
such poor choices on the ballot. It’s like buying a suit labeled “One Size fits All!”
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 28, 2007 at 7:33 AM Right, too diverse. Lets just go back to the status quo which is everything run and operated by whites it’s so much easier. Who needs to take into account the “others”. Well I am actually done here. As I know for a fact that you will NEVER convince me that blacks are so well off and it is our attitude that keeps us making only 58% of what whites make. And I sure as hell am not going to be able to convince any of you that there is more than just blacks being poor, feeling sorry for themselves, violent, ghetto living, bad attitude having people who just can’t seem to learn how to navigate the system in order to “fit into” white society. When will you people learn that you are woefully unable to “see” the world from anything other than your white privileged vantage.
Posted by theblacksentinel on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:22 PM Still complaining, but offering NO proposed solutions. Aviolding the issue altogether. Sad, but how typical.
When will theblacksentinel learn that he is woefully unable to “see” the world from anything other than the chip on his shoulder sad vantage?
Posted by wolf on Nov 29, 2007 at 9:42 AM Hi, Y’all!
You know what? Very few people mention, or seem to know, that in addition to his comedic talent (sans Leonard Part 6) Bill Cosby also has a Ph.D in education, meaning he could determine and direct the educational methods and direction for an entire district or county. Pretty cool. Oh, by the way, you can’t get a degree like that without having to work your butt off for nearly a decade, not only studying but also offering new insights into your field.
I would encourage others to watch The Cosby Show or The Fat Albert Show again. The social and educational values are readily apparent, especially Fat Albert. While the idea of learning to a tune is not new(Schoolhouse Rock), using them to teach rules of behavior and ethics is brilliant. I still remember, thirty years later, some of those tunes and what was being taught.
I think, based on what he has contributed to education as well as entertainment, he can offer criticism on what is turning into social devolution, especially since he understands the causality between work and acheivement.
“Snitches get stitches.” Nathan Bedford Forrest would be pleased.
Dr. Cosby is saying to people who don’t want to hear it “Realize what’s important and WORK to achieve it ! “ For that reason, he is met with hostility.
Regarding his comments about the expensive shoes, I agree. I teach English. The materials I require : pocketed folder with clasps, 200 sheets of paper, yellow pad, and pencils cost less than five dollars and can be purchased anywhere, even the dominant chain supermarket in my region. Yet many of my students still come to school unprepared. Their parents will instead give them expensive electronic geegaws and expensive, trendy clothes. If your priorities are askew, if your reasoning is false, you will not succeed.
Everyone, white,black, or whatever who has made it will tell you that success has to be earned. If that’s racist or the mark of an Uncle Tom… well, see you when I want fries.
Oh, one last thing. It isn’t"White Supremacy” it’s “Wealth Supremacy” Just ask any poor white getting systematically ground up by his crappy job or poverty’s cruelty. I think you’ll find that the poor whites and poor blacks have a lot in common. More than they thought.
Posted by Aunty Rightwing on Dec 5, 2007 at 6:27 PM Amen Aunty,
If people keep thinking like theblacksentinel we will continue with the same kind of diversity — the haves and the have-nots.
Just as the effect of compound interest only works on a bank account over time, so it is with raising one person or a group on the economic scale. The first $1,000 saved for investing requires determination and disipline — there are parallels in all aspects of life, health, education, athletics, business skills — everything.
My perception of our economy right now is that we will continue to see wider economic spreads as our middle class erodes. This can only mean more difficult times for anyone not already wealthy.
Wealth Supremacy is on a roll — globally. This is a time for unity if ever there was one.
WTH
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 6, 2007 at 8:31 AM TWIMC:
There’s an interesting article about Morgan Freeman in the latest AARP magazine.
When 60 Minutes’ Mike Wallace asked how we can overcome the race issue Freeman replied, “Stop talking about it. I’ll stop talking about you being white and ask you to stop talking about me being black.”
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 9, 2007 at 7:58 AM Wow, a man who just wants to be regarded as a man. A pleasant surprise, for a change.
Too rare.
May the idea catch on!
Posted by Kuya on Dec 10, 2007 at 7:36 PM Yep, if people keep thinking like the black sentinel white privilege just might end. But we wouldn’t want that now would we? The problem is that there are serious disparities between blacks and whites yet everyone wants to “pretend” that everything is equal and everyone should just stop complaining and let it be. Whites aren’t making 58% more pay than blacks everything being equal because of the way the black sentinel here thinks.
So, lets just keep the status quo and all the blacks who make 58% less than their white counterparts can just be happy to make anything at all right. Will NOT talking about these disparities make them go away and make people treat blacks differently, I don’t think so. It hasn’t happened yet.
So keep living in fantasy land where everyone is judged on this supposed hard work.
Posted by theblacksentinel on Dec 10, 2007 at 7:58 PM There is a disparity, and the status quo isn’t worth keeping, and I have no use for any unearned privilege, racial or otherwise. If “white” privilege disappeared today, it wouldn’t affect my personal quality of life a bit, except that it would get the society closer to what I want in the first place.
I have no need for a privilege linked to my pale face because I’m smart and capable, exactly like millions of others who both do and also do not share my light complexion.
Also, “not talking about it” is certainly not what I’m about. I’m one who specifically denounces racialist thinking, again and again, on these threads, at work, whenever the opportunity presents itself. If it were the way I’d have it, you and I both would be taken as individuals. Period. Even if that hoped-for goal isn’t fully in hand today, it will be tomorrow (actually, more like the day after… too many people are stuck in old habits of thought, but in time they’ll die off) because some of us, pale and dark of skin, are going to continue to propagandize the smarter, more just attitude, and we’ll be proven correct in the end just as we’re being proven correct every time “what I look like” is surpassed by “what kind of person I am” in the way a man or woman is characterized and regarded, by themselves and by their society.
It does happen. I’ve never said it happens often enough, but if it did I would be less pushy about it.
What isn’t a fantasy at all is that lots of folks born into crap conditions not of their own making manage to get out from under. They liberate themselves, and let others populate the statistics if they’re content to stay within them. And hard work and (especially!) the attitudes that underlie it are absolutely essential to anything of the kind.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 11, 2007 at 1:45 AM theblacksentinel,
Kuya and I are not pretending that everyone gets a fair shake and neither is Morgan Freeman. What we are saying is each of us has to start with what we have and go from there. Treat other people the way you want to be treated.
As for the idea of equal pay — the Soviet Union and others have tried to dictate prices. their 70-year experiment flopped. There is always a genuine “free market” (not the BS one talked about) of supply and demand called the black market. (No racial pun intended.)
Since I retired my barber and I exchange services, which costs us each nothing except time. Favor for favor.
When my son visited the Soviet Union in 1984 Rubles were not the currency of the people— just the government. Things were swapped between him and the Russian kids based on that market. Levis , Elvis recordings and any western, free-world news magazines were what took home the best of what they had to offer.
My son is now earning per hour exactly what I charged per hour when I started my business in 1966. If you figure in the much lower value of the dollar due to inflation, the big increase in taxes, the huge jump in Social Security and Medicare payments his income is pathetic. Twelve years ago he earned triple what he is now getting (also in unadjusted dollars), but the move to globalization has changed what our services are worth and there is no way “fairness” will be restored.
Such is life.
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 20, 2007 at 8:39 AM There seems to be a remedial component causing a gap btw polarized viewpoints. I maintain little interest in labeling someone racist. What I prefer, is to understand the machinations of white supremacy.
“Whiteness” not only is a set of unearned privileges, but the capacity to disguise those privileges behind structures of silence, obfuscation, and denial. The very point of any oppressive structure is to normalize it. It exists within a conceptual framework in which human agency is presented as absolute, the individual is the constitutive unit and equality work is understood to be peripheral. This is the “I’m an individual!” argument which is the antithetical philosophy for people of colour. Yes, people of colour are not a monolith, but there are commonalities of oppression.
Moreover, even the discourse of equality is controlled. Attempted to talk about collective action to right systemic wrongs. There is an odd tendency for Whites to find it too challenging to current hegemony; too pervasive to permit meaningful confrontation at the individual level. Even thoughtful discussions of ways in which White privilege might be dismantled tend to be dominated by only the White inclination to emphasize individual action, which renders such proposals ineffective other than symbolically.
Personal responsibility is ALWAYS emphasized in most communities of colour. However, the conception of individualized responsibility adopted by Whiteness enables Whites to evade engagement with systems of racial injustice. First, Whites can claim not to be responsible ....the “It wasn’t me! I’ve never owned slaves!” argument. Another example: the rhetoric of “White innocence” that is featured prominently in the debate over affirmative action presupposes that there is no individual responsibility on the part of Whites for the societal conditions and normative choices that exclude all but a disproportionately small number of people of color from most of our economic, social and political institutions. Yes, there are some, extraordinary, examples of exceptions, the old “But look at Tiger Woods, Oprah and Obama!” argument, but not all people of colour can be them. What concerns me is the everyday societal integration of ordinary folk. Like the millions of regular Black people who go to their sh*t job every day, go to church, don’t get into trouble with the law and pay their taxes.
Further, because Whites today, continue to take advantage of a legacy of oppression, they must find ways to take collective responsibility for racial subordination. It’s not simply the product of individual failure but is woven into society. The material consequences of it are dramatic.
Wishing away racial injustice, ie. “I don’t think of you as Black” strategy” is not a meaningful option.What does this white supremacy mean in society? Recent studies found that in the United States, everything else being equal, with White employers, a Black applicant with no criminal record is less likely to receive a callback from a potential employer, than a white applicant WITH A FELONY CONVICTION! In other words, being black is more of a liability in finding a job than being a convicted criminal. Into this new century, such discrimination has remained constant.
While whites will acknowledge that disparities in education or other realms exist, they are more likely to attribute these to a lack of ambition and effort than to structural favoritism toward Whites built into U.S. institutions for generations. The rub is you don’t need to be a racist to promulgate policies that are race-conscious....and I think that most people are, inherently, good. However, to do nothing is to continue inequality and this is part of the structure that allows it to exist. Claiming that minorities, who resent white people for the privileges they receive at non-white people’s expense, is “just as bad” as real racism, seems to me, incredibly ignorant.
Posted by HopefulandLearning on Jan 4, 2008 at 9:22 AM HopefulandLearning,
Well, OK, you managed to tell me:
• Blackness versus whiteness is the primary reason for a black person’s failures.
• Everything is stacked against the black person.
• A black individual should be given community assistance.
• YOUR problem is MY fault.You seem to believe this is a situation which calls for a large scale remedy (sort of “one size fits all") rather than something individuals can fix on their own.
The 1964 Civil Rights Act stated that NO ONE was to get treated differently due to color, gender, religion or age. But along came government cures such as ADC, Affirmative Action, quotas and other forms of reverse discrimination.
How is this any different than hiring a convicted felon instead of an honest black person?
We can pass laws to prohibit outright negative acts, but legislation to make everything fair is futile. Even the Constitution only offers the right to “pursue” happiness.
We are individuals whether you like it or not. We are individually born, we live as individuals and die as individuals. Most of us, most of the time, are too busy earning a living and taking care of our own families do go crusading. If you wait for a group to make your life better, you will be sorely disappointed.
Right or wrong such is life.
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