No nation has recognized the regime that took power in Honduras June 28, when the military summarily deported President Manuel Zelaya to Costa Rica in his pajamas. Nonetheless, the political right in both the United States and Honduras is trying to build political support for the coup regime. Zelaya’s opponents, who argue that the coup was not a coup, cite Article… return to article
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Reader Comments (136)Page 1 of 1 pages“Missing from this explanation is acknowledgment that the constitution was crafted by a military-dominated state in 1982, and that this measure was aimed at keeping elected leaders subordinate to the generals.”
The key here being that this is currently the Constitution of the land and the only legal basis to cite. It could also be said, to keep in mind that the US Constitution was drafted by a bunch of rich, landowning rebels to the British crown. Like it or not, Zelaya was removed following the legal procedures set out in Honduran law.
I find it telling that the author cites charges from Hugo Chavez’s ambassador as de facto proof of a conspiracy. I think Hugo Chavez announces a new conspiracy backed by the US government almost daily. At the same time, this model of South American democracy arrests dissenters, shuts down critical media, and nationalizes private property on a whim. What a great example of what we should aspire to…
It seems to me that the vast majority of the player’s in Mr. Weinberg’s diatribe were “accused” or “alleged”. There don’t seem to be a lot of convictions in there. I seem to remember a central premise of our democracy is that you are innocent until proven guilty and the rule of law reigns supreme. It would appear Mr. Weinberg would prefer a Chavez/Zelaya style system where the law is what the strongman says.
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Jul 29, 2009 at 1:07 PM Rick, you are so right. I would dismiss the article as the babble of someone entirely uninformed except that I do not believe Mr. Weinburg to be uninformed. Weinburg seems to have an agenda here. Facts seem to have taken the sidelines in favor of a “greater good.” Dissapointing really.
Weinburg, you are either wrong or lying.
And for the first time I am truly angered and dissapointed by President Obama.
Posted by justanobody on Jul 29, 2009 at 2:01 PM Weinberg completely loses me in paragraph three, when he dismisses Article 239 because it was, he asserts, crafted by a military-dominated state. Of course, this assertion admits, by implication, that Article 239 is still the law in Honduras. Does Weinberg believe, then, that it is appropriate for Hondurans to ignore the law? That’s silly and completely undermines any credibility that the article might otherwise have. It belies the existence of an agenda driven argument that will not allow itself be confused by facts.
Zelaya has been unable to gain any meaningful traction from any political bloc inside Honduras, in spite of the support that his tinpot dictator buddies have thrown his way. That, it would seem, is an indication that the people of Honduras do not support him, Mr. Weinberg’s sophistic efforts on his behalf notwithstanding.
Posted by Stel Parthemos on Jul 29, 2009 at 2:09 PM “Missing from this explanation is acknowledgment that the constitution was crafted by a military-dominated state in 1982, and that this measure was aimed at keeping elected leaders subordinate to the generals.”
Whaaa??? So it was “illegal” because YOU don’t like the law?
To be illegal, it has to be AGAINST the law, see. The Left are masters of rationalization. The right just deals with facts.
Posted by Phil Leith on Jul 29, 2009 at 3:33 PM My Opinion has to be put in 3 different posts. The sytem does not allow me to post more than 4,000 characters at a time.
It is truly sad that here in Honduras we are in the year 2009, and the rest of the world led by the Obama Administration is STUCK in “That 70’s Show.” These are the facts about the Honduran Case.
-Ex-President Zelaya was a rogue President, who thought that he was above the law, and stated several times that the National Congress, the recently elected Supreme Court and all the Democratic Independent Institutions of Honduras were not going to stop him in his quest to change the Honduran Constitution. He also said repeatedly that nobody was going to detain him and put him in jail that the Honduran Police Force and the Honduran Armed Forces were a joke and they obeyed HIM and not the Constitution of the Country.
-The Honduran Constitution was written in 1981 by a democratically elected National Constituent Assembly. This assembly consisted of representatives of the three main political parties at that time, The Liberal Party, The National Party and the PINU. During the elections of 1980, the Liberal Party won 35 seats to the National Constituent Assembly, the Nationalist Party won 32 seats and the PINU won 3. The National Constituent Assembly was installed in July of 1980 and began to write a New Constitution for Honduras. The new Honduran Constitution went into effect on January 27, 1982 with the swearing in of Roberto Suazo Cordoba of the Liberal Party as the country’s first elected President of the modern era.
- The Honduran Constitution which was written consisted of 378 Articles, 371 of those can be reformed, while 7 of those articles CAN NOT. These 7 articles are those that deal with: The Form of Government, the Honduran Territory, the four year Presidential Term, the Re-election of the President of the Country, the process which the Constitution can be reformed, and the Articles stating that the current Constitution CAN NOT BE REPLACED WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION by any means.
-Ex-President Zelaya, due to his desire to be in power for more than the four years that the Honduran Constitution allows, set out to REPLACE the Constitution of Honduras. He wanted for himself to NAME a new National Constituent Assembly, in order for this Assembly to write a new Political Constitution for Honduras. His project was the following: On June 28th of 2009, he wished to conduct a National Opinion Survey, asking the people of Honduras if they wanted for there to be a 4th ballot box in November’s General Election, which would contain the question if the Honduran people wanted HIM to NAME a new National Constituent Assembly in order to write a new Political Constitution. In Honduran elections there are THREE ballot boxes, one to elect the President of the Country, two to elect the representatives to Congress and the third to elect the country’s Mayors.
-There are two different processes which were carried out in the following days and weeks, the first process is the POLITCAL PROCESS to remove Manuel Zelaya as President of Honduras, and the second is the CRIMINAL PROCESS in order to detain Manuel Zelaya, present him to the proper Judicial Authorities for the crimes that he committed against Honduras, and for him to defend himself in a free and fair trial from these charges.
Posted by Gabriel Prats on Jul 29, 2009 at 5:43 PM -The Political Process began on March 25th, when the Attorney General of Honduras, presented his case against Manuel Zelaya Rosales for violating the Honduran Constitution and by trying to REPLACE the Constitution. The Honduran Attorney General presented his Legal Opinion to the lower Courts, stating that what President was doing was Illegal and unconstitutional, and if he did carry out the Opinion survey, he would have to be captured, detained, charged with treason and REMOVED from office.
-The Honduran Solicitor General agreed, she also presented to the Judge of the Lower Courts that if Zelaya carried out the Opinion Survey, he would have to be captured, detained, charged with treason and REMOVED from office.
- The Judge from the Lower Court agreed, he stated that what President Zelaya was doing was Illegal and unconstitutional, and that if he proceeded, he would have to be captured, detained, charged with treason and REMOVED from office. The Judge from the lower courts wrote a judicial notice to Mr. Zelaya, stating that if he carried out his plans for a National Opinion Poll, he would have to be captured, detained, charged with treason and REMOVED from office.
- The case then went to the Honduran Court of Appeals, where the Court of Appeals in a 3-0 vote, stated that what President Zelaya was doing was Illegal and unconstitutional, and they also served him a Judicial Notice that if he proceeded with the National Opinion Poll, he would have to be captured, detained, charged with treason and REMOVED from office.
-Every step of the way, President Zelaya defended his position in TRIAL, every step of the way the Honduran Judicial Branch, disagreed with him.
-The Honduran Supreme Court, then served judicial notices to President Zelaya, to all of his Ministers, and to the Armed Forces of Honduras, that if any of them participated in this survey, they would have to be captured, detained, charged with treason and REMOVED from office.
- On June 24th 2009 the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the Honduran Armed Forces, informed President Zelaya that they would not participate in the Illegal and unconstitutional Public Opinion Poll. President Zelaya proceeded to fire General Romeo Vasquez Velasquez, the head of the Honduran Armed Forces.
-On June 25th 2009, the Honduran Supreme Court declared that the General had been fired illegally, and that he would be reinstated in his job as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
-On June 27th 2009, President Manuel Zelaya signed and published in the National Gazette, the Presidential Decree which was BINDING and had the full force of Law, calling for a National Opinion Survey to be executed on June 28th of 2009. The decree did not call for a fourth ballot box in November’s Election, it called for a National Opinion Survey, where the people of Honduras would be able to vote either YES or NO if they wanted Honduran President Zelaya to Name a new National Constituent Assembly in order to write a new Political Constitution for Honduras.
-The Votes, were to be counted and tabulated by the Executive Branch of Government, by the Presidential House, by President Zelaya himself, who do you think would have won in the poll?
Posted by Gabriel Prats on Jul 29, 2009 at 5:44 PM -On the afternoon of June 27th of 2009, the 15 Magistrates to the Honduran Supreme Court met in secret and issued the following decisions.
1) They decided that due to the fact the President Zelaya had published a Presidential Decree, calling for a National Opinion Poll in order for him to NAME a National Constituent Assembly to write a new Political Constitution for Honduras; President Zelaya had willingly broken Articles 4, 239, 374 and 375 of the Honduran Constitution.
2) The Supreme Court which is the institution that legally removes Public Officials from Office, decided in a 15-0 vote to REMOVE Manuel Zelaya as President of Honduras, invoking article 239 of the Honduran Constitution. Article 239 clearly states, that any Public Official that in any way TRIES to change or amend the Article that states that there CAN NOT be Presidential re-election, by either direct or INDIRECT means, is REMOVED IMMEDIATELY from office.
3) The Supreme Court in a 15-0 vote also ordered the Honduran Armed Forces to capture and detain CITIZEN Manuel Zelaya, and to present him to the proper Judicial Authorities, in order for his CRIMINAL TRIAL to begin.
- On the early morning of June 28th the Honduran Armed Forces captured Manuel Zelaya, in order to maintain the public peace they did not present him to the proper Judicial Authorities, and agreed with Zelaya that he would be sent into exile to Costa Rica.
- That same day the Honduran National Congress voted 122-6 to substitute Manuel Zelaya as President of Honduras with Roberto Micheletti then President of Congress. This was done in clear accordance to the Honduran Constitution and Honduran Presidential succession.
- Roberto Micheletti was then sworn in as President of Honduras.
-Constitutional order in Honduras has not been BROKEN, what happened in Honduras on June 28th was the legal and Constitutional transfer of Presidential Powers from a man that the day before had been removed from office to the man that became President that day in accordance with Honduran law.
-The OAS and The United States government declared that Constitutional Order in Honduras was interrupted, but have yet to explain how and why. They have YET to explain to us using examples from the Honduran Constitution why the events that happened in June 27th and June 28th were not done in accordance with Honduran law.
1) The Honduran Constitution is the SAME, democracy still LIVES.
2) The National Congress is the same.
3) The Honduran Supreme Court is the same.
4) All other independent democratic institutions in Honduras are the same.
5) The Armed Forces are in their barracks and continue to follow legal constitutional orders from the President of Honduras.
-Can the Obama Administration and the OAS, PLEASE present their legal documents where they prove that Manuel Zelaya Rosales was ILLEGALLY removed from being President of Honduras?
-It would be nice if they present their case showing specific articles of the Honduran Constitution.
-No man is above the law, not even Presidents.
-We want Honduras to be a country ruled by laws NOT MEN.
Posted by Gabriel Prats on Jul 29, 2009 at 5:45 PM Weinberg ties himself in knots trying to wriggle around the Honduran Constitution. It won’t work, regardless of his views on the document’s origin and legitimacy. It is what it is, and Zelaya’s removal was accomplished WITHIN its provisions. Sorry, Bill, but your case, like most socialist argument, rests on ignoring facts when they suit your conclusions. Now—what do you think about the Second Amendment to OUR Constitution? Hmmm?
Posted by Steve R. on Jul 29, 2009 at 5:48 PM Weinberg’s attempt to legitimize the poliltical thuggery of Zelaya & the statist movement falls flat.
Ignoring the constitution & law seems to be a trend among the left around the world. It is plainly evident that Zelaya was attempting to set himself up as a leader for life, like Castro & Chavez. Consider this:
Zelaya was going to hold his own election, using ballots supplied by Venezuela.
The results of the election were ready to be published - these results a huge victory for Zelaya.
THE ELECTION DID NOT OCCUR.
We have a blatantly contrived election. Zelaya should be happy he’s been exiled instead of in jail, where he should be.
Posted by Robin Ray on Jul 29, 2009 at 6:55 PM The claim that “the constitution was crafted by a military-dominated state in 1982, and that this measure was aimed at keeping elected leaders subordinate to the generals”” is opposite the clear history of “continuismo” in Latin America and the importance of article 239 to protect the rule of law from tyrants such as Chavez and Zelaya.
Lawyer and former Honduran Minister of Culture Octavio Sánchez explains:
These are the facts: On June 26, President Zelaya issued a decree ordering all government employees to take part in the “Public Opinion Poll to convene a National Constitutional Assembly.” In doing so, Zelaya triggered a constitutional provision that automatically removed him from office.
Constitutional assemblies are convened to write new constitutions. When Zelaya published that decree to initiate an “opinion poll” about the possibility of convening a national assembly, he contravened the unchangeable articles of the Constitution that deal with the prohibition of reelecting a president and of extending his term. His actions showed intent.
Our Constitution takes such intent seriously. According to Article 239: “No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform [emphasis added], as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.” . . .
“Continuismo – the tendency of heads of state to extend their rule indefinitely – has been the lifeblood of Latin America’s authoritarian tradition. The Constitution’s provision of instant sanction might sound draconian, but every Latin American democrat knows how much of a threat to our fragile democracies continuismo presents. In Latin America, chiefs of state have often been above the law. The instant sanction of the supreme law has successfully prevented the possibility of a new Honduran continuismo.
The Supreme Court and the attorney general ordered Zelaya’s arrest for disobeying several court orders compelling him to obey the Constitution. He was detained and taken to Costa Rica. Why? Congress needed time to convene and remove him from office. With him inside the country that would have been impossible. This decision was taken by the 123 (of the 128) members of Congress present that day.
A ‘coup’ in Honduras? Nonsense. Don’t believe the myth. The arrest of President Zelaya represents the triumph of the rule of law.
It is critically important to protect constitutional democracies in Latin America from “continuismo” and “chavismo” spreading.
Posted by 2sun on Jul 30, 2009 at 12:56 AM Most of the previous comments help me understand the value of democracy, such as was the case of the war against Irak based on false allegations of the existence of weapons of mass destruction which were never found, war which was started unilaterally, without consulting the people as should have been done in a truly democratic country, the eternal accusations against any country which may wish to
get off USA’s pushy influence and the eternal need you seem to have to find new enemies. As far as I remember, in my country, Argentina, several governments democratically elected by the people’s votes were overthrown by the armed forces between 1955 and 1976 and in every case theose dictatorships were immediately recognized by USA’s governments and all the crimes against thousands of people were ignored.
For the first time in Latin America’s history, the OEA has done the right thing and I feel very proud that this has been so, as it may mean we are perhaps losing fear and on our way to make our own choices. Why create world organizations if you are not prepared to follow what most of their memebers agree on? Is that democratic, such as refusing to sign the Kyoto Protocol, to pay deaf ears to the ONU’s decision not to invade Irak, etc. ?
Posted by Maria on Jul 30, 2009 at 4:02 AM This article is inane. Basically, Mr. Weinberg is saying that as long as oneignores the law, the “coup” was illegal. He then goes to unimaginable stretches to try and implicate a Clintonesque “right-wing conspiracy”. The fact that Hugo Chavez, President Obama and the OEA went along with Zelaya and the Honduran people did not says a lot. Notice how little President Obama has said about this recently. He stepped in it badly and is trying to quietly extricate himself. By the way, this was not a traditional “coup” and it stretches credulity to paint it as such.
Maria, I’m not sure what overthrowing a dictator like Saddam Hussein has to do with ignoring democracy, but you’re welcome to explain the inexplicable. I’m also not sure by what legal basis the OEA claims to have done “the right thing”, but Hondurans sure don’t seem to mind not having Zelaya in power. They will get a chance to democratically elect a new leader in January anyway. How does democracy lose, particularly when Zelaya’s own actions demonstrated a keen aversion to democratic principles and the rule of law, which is precisely what the Honduran constitution was trying to prevent!
Posted by skeeter_jr on Jul 30, 2009 at 6:25 AM A study of the rise of fascism in Italy & Germany between WW1 & WW2 is instructive. One will see that the intelligentsia in Hollywood & on the left in our country & others in the free world were falling all over themselves to fawn over Hitler & Mussolini.
Those same people in our modern day would be fawning over Chavez, Castro, Saddam, & other dictators.
It’s not that hard to look at the Honduran constitution to see where Zelaya broke the law. In my earlier post, I detail where the results of the referendum were ready to be published - BEFORE THE VOTE. The vote was stopped - Is this damning evidence not enough for the left?
Posted by Robin Ray on Jul 30, 2009 at 8:24 PM Skeeter_jr I am sorry you can’t see what I mean by telling you that. What surprises me most is that all comments on Mr. Weinberg ‘s article has received the repulse of its commentators and I wonder why you all read In These Times, which is obviously on the other side of the street of where you are standing.
Each country has its own history and should be respected in their decisions, so long as they are not a danger to others. In the case of Irak, I don’t recall the Irak people asking the USA to help them overthrow Sadam, or Mr. Bush asking the American people’s opinion about sending mercenary troops (which you all pay for) to do that, the only way this would have been a democratic choice. So, while USA is trying to tell everybody what they should do in their countries, you don’t seem to be consulted about what the American people need or want and that is not a democracy. I suggest you read ChalmersJohnson’s book “Blowback; The Costs and Consequences of American Empire”
Posted by Maria on Jul 30, 2009 at 8:29 PM Hi Maria,
I read this article for some perspective from the “other side”. What I found was sorely lacking. I do this so as not to have a myopic view of the world.
What strikes me is the difference between this statement and your previously stated opinion on the topic, “Each country…should be respected in their decisions, so long as they are not a danger to others.” Is that not what the Honduran government did when it enforced it’s own Constitution in an orderly and non-violent way? Based on that statement the interference of the OAS, Hugo Chavez and President Obama deserves condemnation rather than praise.
You may or may not be aware that there was great debate about whether the United States should get involved in Iraq that took months (from summer 2002 until March of 2003). Our elected representatives voted and many on both sides approved military action. This is what happens in a representative democracy, which is different than a direct democracy.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Jul 30, 2009 at 8:50 PM Maria,
It’s Iraq, BTW…
Also Maria, how about reading & listening to different viewpoints? It’s hard to have an exchange of ideas if everything’s the same “Bush is Bad” or “USA is evil, mercenary, empire, blah blah blah…” stuff.
BTW also… Johnson is wrong in the title - The US doesn’t have an empire. We free the other countries, like Iraq & Afghanistan, which were under thuggish dictators.That way the people of those countries can experience freedom, which is a good thing.
Posted by Robin Ray on Jul 30, 2009 at 8:58 PM Speechless, nearly, is where these comments leave me.
I’d bet good money, if I had any, that plenty of them are written by people who read this paper just so they can nay-say the content. If they’re reading just to get two or more sides of the story, why write such long comments? Who’s got that kind of time, or that detailed an interest?
I appreciate what I learned in the article. I’ve been wondering why more wasn’t made of this situation - yes, a coup - from the beginning. Back when coups were a dime a dozen, Zelaya’s so-called crime would’ve been a no-count, a yawn. And it does matter when - and by who - the constitution was written. So the constitution’s never to be touched? That’s an outrage. A law like that needs to be broken. Get some perspective, people!
Posted by Nonda Paarlberg on Aug 13, 2009 at 9:54 AM You are right Nonda, I have the suspicion that most of the comments to this and other articles are written just to create confusion and justify what has no justification, by the modern version of the Greek “sophists”, well paid men who roamed about Greece sreading “sophisms” so as to muddle the good work of philosophers. I haven’t seen a single word explaining as to the right to take a legal president out of office and send him in his pyjamas to another country. Is that in the constitution also?
Posted by Maria on Aug 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM Simply read the Honduran Consitution for yourself and you’ll see why two of the three branches of government (legislative and judicial) ordered Zelaya’s ouster. The reason the military was involved was to enforce the order. In case you lost your copy of the Honduran Constitution, here is Article 239:
No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.
It’s not that the Constitution cannot be touched, it’s that this Article and a handful of other ones cannot. The Constitution has been changed a few times already since 1982. I’m not sure what it is about this Article that “needs to be broken”, particularly when looking at it from the perspective of folks that have suffered under one dictator after another. This article was specifically intended to prevent a repeat of that phenomenon.
I’m not sure where sophistry comes into play in what I’ve written given that I’m citing the Honduran Constitution. Before getting all misty for Mr. Zelaya, others might want to read it before lecturing on sophistry.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Aug 13, 2009 at 4:07 PM Maria, Te voy a decir una cosa. Te extraña de que gente del otro lado es educada y quiere saber de opiniones no solo al lado suyo. Pensalo vos un momentito. La gente no comenta porque la opinión de este tipo Weinburg está contra a la de ellos. Comenta esta gente porque él esta promulgando su propia agenda sin importar la verdad. Vos quien sos latina y no entendés tu propia historia me da lastima.
Nonda, “…Back when coups were a dime a dozen, Zelaya’s so-called crime would’ve been a no-count, a yawn.” But coups are not a dime a dozen any more, Nonda. Zelaya broke the law and was ousted. If anything was done illegally it may have been his being ousted from his own country, but he is welcome to return. He may even get an apology followed by his formal trial. Legal formalities will not help this man as long as Honduras sticks to the law.
Posted by justanobody on Aug 13, 2009 at 4:59 PM I mean, it’s blatantly obvious what the thuggish Zelaya was trying to do. The constitution of Honduras is very clearly written, & Zelaya was clearly breaking the law.
No one has tried to refute the FACT that the results of the election were already ready to be disseminated - though the election had not happened.
It seems the chant from the left has quickly turned from “four legs good, two legs bad” to “four legs good, two legs better…”
Posted by Robin Ray on Aug 13, 2009 at 6:23 PM Thank you, justanobody, for enlightening me about the history of Latin America, and thank you for your pity but I suggest you reserve your pity for more deserving people.
As for Robin Ray, why would anybody refute what would have been done with the result of the “consultation” (not an election) since it never happened? Are you a clairvoyant?
Posted by Maria on Aug 13, 2009 at 7:58 PM No, not clarivoyant. I did not provide a lilnk to the reporting on the rigged election, so here is a google search link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Zelaya+results+of+election+on+computers s&aq=f&oq;=&aqi;=
Posted by Robin Ray on Aug 13, 2009 at 8:19 PM Nonda Paarlberg said, “I’d bet good money, if I had any, that plenty of them are written by people who read this paper just so they can nay-say the content. If they’re reading just to get two or more sides of the story, why write such long comments? Who’s got that kind of time, or that detailed an interest?
I appreciate what I learned in the article. I’ve been wondering why more wasn’t made of this situation - yes, a coup - from the beginning. Back when coups were a dime a dozen, Zelaya’s so-called crime would’ve been a no-count, a yawn. And it does matter when - and by who - the constitution was written. So the constitution’s never to be touched? That’s an outrage. A law like that needs to be broken. Get some perspective, people!”
Maria said, “Thank you, justanobody, for enlightening me about the history of Latin America, and thank you for your pity but I suggest you reserve your pity for more deserving people.
As for Robin Ray, why would anybody refute what would have been done with the result of the “consultation” (not an election) since it never happened? Are you a clairvoyant? “
Nonda, My question to you is, “what difference does it make why someone reads this paper?” It might be to get a different perspective, it might be to refute outrageous claims made by the author to both hold him/her accountable and to provide people that aren’t enlightened enough to learn the other side the option to hear another perspective. Knowledge is power. I believe an intelligent person listens to as many angles of a subject as they can, then comes to an informed opinion based on ALL of the evidence. Listening to one side, just because it conforms and confirms your belief is narrow-minded and short-sighted in my opinion.
As for your comment about the relevance of who wrote the Constitution, yes it matters. Was it written by a Constitutional Assembly that was representative of the people it means to govern? I think in the case of Honduras it was. Regardless of that fact, it IS the law of Honduras and specifically spells out remedies for a government official attempting to violate the Constitution. It would appear Zelaya did try to circumvent the law and the other two branches of government took the appropriate action to stop a power grab by the Executive branch.
Allowing the government to dismiss the rules of the national Constitution on a whim sets a dangerous precedent. Would you be supportive of a government in your country that was opposite of your political beliefs tossing out the Constitution when it doesn’t suit their needs and then repressing your right to oust them from power, or jailing you on trumped up charges because you oppose them???
Maria, If there is evidence that Zelaya was pushing for a referendum that never happened, but the government already had results ready to be released, prior to the vote, you would be OK with that?
Imagine that your government was going to hold a vote to determine if they were allowed to arrest anyone on suspicion of being disloyal to the government without charges, without due process, and without trial and three days before the vote was to be held that the body that oversees the election results accidently released the results showing a landslide mandate for the government in power to proceed. Before the vote even happened mind you. Would that concern you? ...even a little? If you say no, I’d like to chat with you about some nuclear- contamine….er, I mean great land with a natural glow that I’ve been trying to sell
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Aug 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM Apparently , this is another case of unwelcomed US involement in the affairs of Latin Amerikan nations.It appears that whenever independent nations attempt to regulate there own affairs , the US believes it is there right to intervene…......
Robin Ray….Blackhorse is not sure where you get your information…But the US, invaded Iraq and Afghistan in violation of international law..This so-called freeing of nations is just code language for ” imperialist aggression ” against countries that either have resourses that the US wants ; or these nations are strategically ie geographically located on the globe in a way that benefits the US military interests…
Additionally, when these actions are taken , it allows politicians such as the above mentioned Bush/ Cheney team to raid the US treasury { YOUR TAX DOLLARS} for said funds to finance these aforementioned imperialist aggression against weaker nation.
Think about that for a minute ; your tax dollars used to finance war , for the private money making schemes of a few war profiteers.Bush wanted the oil from Iraq and Afghistan is about drug profits…ya know heroin….Your pollyanna viewpoint is nothing but a good cop, bad cop ostentatious cripple act , brought to you by the makers of corporate facist amerikanizationalism…
Posted by blackhorse on Sep 30, 2009 at 8:35 PM It really doesn’t matter what part of the world you live or your social so-called class… Latin amerika , afrika , iraq , iran { this nuclear thing is just another scam by the US } or middle class amerika…These corporate thugs want your money…There is a saying among the super rich..”.Their money is their money; and your money is their money…”
The true capitalist are 24/7 thinking , plotting , planning and of course executing their plans to get what little money , land and resourses the rest of us have worked so hard for…
Now if you and some of the others who have posted in agreement with your beliefs are down { OK } with this sort of thuggism, just keep think and believing in that fake ass amerikan democracy trip, and one day you are your children can live and die as the good folks in Iraq or Afghanistan or Hunduras or any other nation that amerika has , using your term ” freed “...
Robin Ray and folks of your elk are at the very lest extremely , excessive naive..
Good luck…....................P.S…Yes I realize Afghanistan is spelled incorrectly in the first posting…edit please…
Posted by blackhorse on Sep 30, 2009 at 8:58 PM I suppose throwing poisonous gases over the Brazilian Embassy must be considered “constitutional”. Stop the double message, please. Anybody in his right mind can see that Micheletti wouldn’t have dared take the violent measures he took without the back up of some mighty power.
His kidnapping Zelaya and taking him in his night clothes to Costa Rica is unbelievable unless a previous acceptance was given. Did they just land there and put him down, with nobody trying to stop them?
And guess what, now, after feigning to be in disagreement with the coup, a new memeber from U.S. has called Zelaya before the OEA an “irresponsible idiot”.
Posted by Maria on Oct 1, 2009 at 6:08 PM Wow, the last couple of posts are truly hilarious - & sad. “Poisonous gases?”
Blackhorse, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of FREE market capitalism. Perhaps you are not from the US & do not have experience with (mostly) free markets. Feudal systems with Lords & thugs stealing people’s land & money is not capitalism - it’s authoritarianism, the type of government Zelaya would like to impose on Honduras.
Posted by Robin Ray on Oct 1, 2009 at 6:17 PM Please take a look - or a listen - to Oscar Arias’s speech on Sept 29. And hang in there, Maria.
Posted by Nonda Paarlberg on Oct 2, 2009 at 4:54 AM I did Nonda, and it was a very intelligent speech which called for real changes but, apart from everybody clapping, are the leaders of the world really aware of the extremely dangerous position humanity is in today? When I was a child, most countries had War Ministries, which then were changed into Defense Ministries as a way to hide their intentions of going to war., but never in the history of the planet, so many weapons have been available. A weapon is something to kill with, nomatter how you justify its manufacture. No matter which country has nuclear weapons, or other sophisticated elements to kill lpeople and destroy populations, the latent danger is stilll there and I don’t feel safer because those weapons are in one or another possession.
Posted by Maria on Oct 2, 2009 at 4:12 PM Robin Ray….Unfortunately I am from the US, and equally unfortunate is the response you have written. It seems that you are a fan of authoritarianism as long as it benefits your perspective, and is in opposition to those that wish to handle their nations affairs in whatever manner these individuals see fit.
Additionally , your so-called free market capitalism is the raison d’etre behind this whole mess in the first place..The lords and thugs you speak of are in fact your own governmental authorities, covertly and in some cases quite openly involved in illegal actions that bring about the subsequent subterfuge that you so fondly speak of..
This Blackhorse has become quite amused at the niave musings of individuals such as yourself…Robin unless you are of the class that is consider in amerika to be the so-called super rich ; you ain’t no capitalist..So why ?? Why ?? Do you and others who share your myopic opinions ; cheer for those who could care less about your future, your childrens future or the nations future…
Case in point…Under a purely free market capitalist system , if one was to call the fire dept or let’s say the police..When they get to your home , it’s not about putting out the fire or catching the criminal that has burglarized your home; it’s about ” how will you pay for the service madam “..This is an extreme example, but this is where the gov’t is headed..Why do you think health care is such a difficult issue ? Because the so-called ” free marketeers” want their money..The number of lobbyist on capital hill is something like 40 to 1 against any one congressperson or senator..These folks don’t care if you live or die, they want the MONEY, period…Plain and simple….Maybe this is what Robin does for a living ? ? eeh ? ?
Anywho, Blackhorse is piss positive he is taking to a wall, you neo-con sympathizer couldn’t reason your way out of a shoe box, much less this Nazi inspired putrefactional mess…
Good Luck and remember “all is not forever “...
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 5, 2009 at 8:44 PM Blackhorse,
I won’t deign to insult you because of or in spite of your beliefs, American or not. I am concerned that you are not able to read the large text to the right of the posting area that says, “Please be respectful in your comments and try to remain on-topic”.
The man that relished authoritarian power was Zelaya. If the soon-to-be elected government is not allowed to take power by the Micheletti-run government, then you and I will be on the same side of the issue as whomever wins the election should take control. If you somehow believe that Zelaya should take control regardless of the election, then we are at an impasse and no further discussion is warranted, as Zelaya’s term would have expired anyway. Either way, in my opinion Zelaya is and should be out of power for the next 10 years based on Honduran law.
The initial US response was a poor one; a knee-jerk reaction to reports of a “coup” and it was not very well thought out. It turns out the “coup” was the lawful cessation of Zelaya’s authority as the Honduran president, which hitherto had never been carried out. As his plans have become known, the support for Zelaya has grown weaker and weaker. He got a minor boost recently when the Micheletti government made the boneheaded mistake of gagging two pro-Zelaya news outlets. Zelaya has holed himself up in the Brazilian embassy, pathetically clinging to any last sentiments he can get from anyone who’ll listen. It will likely be to no avail, but to what else has he to cling? A feeble ending for the would-be Honduran dictator for life.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Oct 5, 2009 at 10:16 PM Skeeter….......from Blackhorse…................NUTS….............
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 8, 2009 at 7:28 PM Additionally….In reading many of the right -wing responses to this article , Blackhorse repeatly comes across references to the constitution of the Honduras….And the rule of law…??
Know forgive me if I am wrong ; but in my studies of history , didn’t good ‘ol George Washington the first slave owning president of these here United State of Amerika , break the law in his revolt against them English…And didn’t good ‘ol George Bush call the US constitution, quote ” just a GD piece of paper “.
I make this observation based on the belief by many of you good ‘ol folks that the so-called right-wingers deal with the so-called facts and everybody else is just looking for excuses….....
Hey ; one mans criminal is another mans freedom fighter….true.
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 8, 2009 at 8:05 PM Blackhorse,
While I can appreciate the basis of your assertion that perspective plays a role in history, recent events are hardly ready for the historical lens just yet. You can go ahead and continue to argue down this rabbit hole if you wish. While I agree with you on historical perspective, it doesn’t change the fact that Zelaya broke the law. Historical perspective would also inform you that many men owned slaves in the late 18th century as the practice was not uncommon (***I’m not condoning slavery***). In addition, if you’re inclined to believe that Zelaya did what he did for the benefit of the people and not his own devices (if so, why hide it or pre-ordain the results), you’re fooling yourself.
I will agree that George Washington (and many others) broke English law and did so unashamedly, as they believed in a few basic principles which they were not afforded. Which principles does Zelaya stand for? His aim was to extend his own hold on power. Do you really mean to imply that Zelaya is the George Washington of Honduras? Zelaya really represents liberty and the pursuit of happiness to you? In that case, you might want to join him in the Brazilian embassy.
If you truly don’t like America in general and George Washington in particular, do you really think it bolsters your argument to defend a man like Zelaya by comparing him to an American patriot and an unquestionably great historical figure? The comparison leaves your rants and Mr. Zelaya sorely wanting.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Oct 8, 2009 at 8:56 PM Good retorts Skeeter.
Dear Blackhorse,
I hope you feel better after resorting to name-calling & personal attacks. It certainly does not enhance your intellectual argument.
In my world there exists the full spectrum of colors - white to black to red to green to blue. There are some things which are plainly right & others plainly wrong. In the world displayed through your posts, there are only varying shades of gray - very sad.
What Zelaya tried to do was simply wrong - he wants to be a Chavez-like (who himself wants to be a Castro-like) president for life, ruling - not serving or leading. Human beings were not designed to be ruled over - we were designed to be free & choose our leaders.
Have a nice & blessed day.
Posted by Robin Ray on Oct 8, 2009 at 10:06 PM Dear Robin , Skeeter ; unfortuntately Blackhorse is not able to get across to you two neo-con fans that covert takeovers of independent nations is not a good thing…Additionally your continued reference to Zelaya as a criminal that deserved to be removed from the Presidency of Honduras; overlooks the fact that former Pres. Bush stole two , not one , but two election; started two wars illegally, presided over the biggest economic downturn known to mankind and in the humble opinion of this horse was involved in the covert false flag operation called 911….
Now if that ain’t grounds for impeachment I don,t know what is, but hey; apparentlly sex in the Oval office( Clinton) is a more serious offense then the wholesale misuse of power that has resulted in the deaths( murder) of thousands of US troops ; not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afganistan citizens that have absolutely nothing to do with any of this nonsense….Ah no , stick a fork in Zelaya , but Bush is OK.
Blackhorse really is not concerned with Zelaya as an individual; but if he can continue the trend of leadership that Chavez represents then he has got to be a damn sight better then a cripping facist such as Bush; but again Blackhorse is sure that this straight forward line of reason and or commonsense is not permitted in your increasingly myopic neo-conservative reactionary perspective..Ostentatiousness is the fetus of the crippled pervertion that Blackhorse continually referrs too as facist Amerikanizationalism ; the excessive use of corporate power to controll gov,t resources…...
Again Good Luck…your raison d’etre is on the ropes…....True….
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 11, 2009 at 2:03 AM It’s inexplicable the position of Obama in this case. Even those who voted for him are scratching their heads. This is someone who went on and on about “the people”, “democracy”, etc etc.
All that’s out the window in the case of Honduras here, as well as regarding Iran and the struggle of its people to attain some semblance of self-determination and freedom of expression, political and otherwise.
Shame on you Obama. Not only are you turning out to be no fan of individual human freedom, you are guilty of misleading the American people into assuming that you were.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 11, 2009 at 5:03 AM Blackhorse,
Blackhorse’s comments are so inane they’re funny. Every time Blackhorse employs the self-referential third person I think of Seinfeld and “The Jimmy”. Hilarious, but that’s just the start. I’m not sure if Blackhorse has heard, but the fork has been in Bush for nearly 10 months now. Blackhorse obviously can’t forget him. If Blackhorse hates America, and Blackhorse thinks Bush was bad for America, why hate him? That makes zero sense. Think about the consistency of Blackhorse’s position before criticizing others’. Why make this about Bush when it has nothing to do with him at all? Blackhorse is applying moral relativism to situations completely irrelevant to Honduras and the present case there. There’s a reason nobody talks/writes that way…
For all your bluster, this isn’t a left-right issue. I’m not in favor of supporting someone that wants to set himself up as a dictator for life and attempts to control the results of the vote to do so. If you think that’s just “good government” there’s really no reason to carry this conversation further. Speaking of myopic, there is actually an argument to be made for Zelaya if you mustered any effort to do so. Based on your prior posts, I don’t think you can bring yourself to do it in a compelling fashion. You haven’t once mentioned the sole reason for Zelaya to have hope before the November election, nor have you even tried to defend his actions. I challenge you to post a cogent, rational analysis of this situation from a pro-Zelaya perspective. If you can’t/won’t, I will.
Zelaya is as done as Bush is. It is very likely his best hope is to come back in ten years and try again. The Honduran people likely won’t accept his leadership even in the event international pressure increases and Zelaya comes back on a “technicality”. With no backing in the legislature or the courts, the government will come to a standstill, crippling his rule. The people have a chance to speak in a little over a month and I’m fairly certain it won’t be in favor of Zelaya.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Oct 11, 2009 at 6:37 AM Skeeter , whats funny is a frustrated neo-con such as yourself trolling on progressive web-sites such as this…Whats the matter ? ? Can’t get any play in your own neighborhood ? ?
Natalie , I understand your frustration with Obama , but remember this guy has got a extremely big mess to clear up….Additionally, threats on the presidency have gone up significantly ; some 400% sense his election to that office…The man has to step lightly right know….And remember also that the job of being president has nothing to do with us, it’s about striking an unequal balance between the powerful and the regular worker…Obama or any other woman or man in his position, has too, and I repeat ,has too, operate somewhat within the confines of that juxtaposition This setup has been in affect for quite some time now, and Obama is not in the position( without our help) to do anything about it….Not a pretty picture ; but thats how ostentatious facism works; always the figure head, parading in front of the crouching dragon….
As I have stated in the past, to the odd amusement of the skeeters of the world…Excessive amerikanizationalism is the cash cow of the nationalized ostentatious cripple….In other words; the industrail military corporate complex ; calls the shots…....Sadd but True….......
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 13, 2009 at 8:18 PM blackhorse, you forgot to refer to yourself in “Bob Dole” fashion in the above post. Attempting to use big words does not make your arguments any more powerful.
For people like me, we cannot understand the pathology of those who support despots & thugs llike Chavez, Ahmidenijad, & the like. It is also educational that your intellectual defense is “BUBUBUBUBUT BOOOOOOSH…”
It’s funny that you smear skeeter & assuming myself for being Jewish & coming on this site. The problem is that you & others cannot defend your ideas but have to resort ot smears & making up your own words…
Posted by Robin Ray on Oct 13, 2009 at 9:20 PM I’m afraid I don’t buy all the excuses and rationalizations. blackhorse. Obama is not even doing the bare minimum up until now assumed to be a basic duty of any U.S. President—standing up for freedom and standing against those who would deny it.
And when he does, belatedly, it’s half-hearted at best.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 14, 2009 at 12:30 AM “Obama is not even doing the bare minimum up until now assumed to be a basic duty of any U.S. President—standing up for freedom and standing against those who would deny it.”
I suppose that is the expression of a desire, not a reality Natalie is mentioning because unless my memory is failing, what I have seen in the last years about U.S.A. presidents with regard to other countries doesn’t exactlyl fit into that pattern.
Blackhorse, I wish you luck in this discussion, but it won’t be easy, with so many specialists on Hondura’s constitution. By the way, does the American constitution allow torture to prisoners, killing civilians in distant countries, and lying to their own people to start wars by which only profit is seeked?
Posted by Maria on Oct 14, 2009 at 1:30 AM Thank you Maria…Blackhorse is through with this bunch of skallywaggs…
Natalie I have to disagree , given the position he is in, I believe you and others are being a bit over critical….......
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 14, 2009 at 7:57 PM It is a desire over a reality in many cases Maria. Desire comes before reality, usually. However, the problem with Obama is that he doesn’t even seem to harbor the desire, or the spirit, and that’s troubling.
Obviously there are world forces and competing interests that make it difficult to say things like:
“I am here to promote the Freedom Doctrine. The great battleground for the defense and expansion of freedom today, is the whole southern half of the globe: Asia, Latin America, Africa and the Middle East, the lands of the rising people. Their revolution is the greatest in human history. They seek an end to injustice, tyranny, and exploitation. More than an end, they seek a beginning. And there is a revolution which we would support regardless of the Cold War, and regardless of which political or economic route they should choose to freedom.”—John F. Kennedy
Or….
“Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall”—Ronald Reagan
Or…..
“I leave Prague with a certainty that the cause of freedom is not tired, and that its future is in the best of hands. With unbreakable faith in the power of liberty, you will inspire your people, you will lead your nations, and you will change the world.—George W. Bush
But, it sure would be refreshing to me and many people around the world if Obama could at least fake something for us. Not too likely, as he’s unwilling to side with a country’s people and its constitution over a self-serving wanna-be leader for life.
After all, even Jimmy Carter talked of freedom:
“The responsibility for this terrible human rights crime lies in Jerusalem, Cairo, Washington, and throughout the international community. This abuse must cease; the crimes must be investigated; the walls must be brought down, and the basic right of freedom must come to you.” —Jimmy Carter
Get with it, Barack. Don’t let Jimmy show you up!
Looking more and more like Obama and friends (Castro/Chavez) called this one wrong:
“The U.N. report is said to reach the same conclusion as one prepared by experts at the Library of Congress for members of the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives which determined that Zelaya’s removal proceeded in accordance with the laws of Honduras. The U.N. study also concluded that the matter was a purely internal affair and, consequently, the General Assembly resolution demanding Zelaya’s reinstatement violated the organization’s Charter, which prohibits it from meddling in such matters.”
Posted by Natalie on Oct 15, 2009 at 3:10 AM Natalie…You are hiding behind a false sense of nationalism ; it is becoming quite clear to this horse that your problem with Obama has nothing to do with policy , and everything to do with who Obama is…
Get off that sinking ship and deal with the fact that Obama is a man of afrikan heritage , that his middle name is Hussien , and that he is without a douft the most powerful intellect in the White House for at least the last 30 years…
Now blackhorse is sure you don’t want to deal with that reality… But if it wasn’t true ; how did the man get to be the President ? ?
The facts point clearly to the reality that he has read the political ” tea leaves ” better than all of the other so-called qualified individuals positioned to take that job…
What you need to do Natalie ; is admit you are mad because a man of color is in your WHITE HOUSE…Begin the healing process; your only hurting yourself with this denial syndrome….Good Luck….............
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 15, 2009 at 8:04 PM Oh blackhorse - not everyone in this world judges by color of skin - we conservatives in the US by in large “judge” by content of character & quality of work. It’s a horrible weakness to rely on racial attributes rather than quality.
Why not refute specifics? Because the facts are not on your side. Resorting to the flaccid attack of racism will not work because we are wise to that now, & point out that it exposes you as having true racist thoughts & tendancies.
Posted by Robin Ray on Oct 15, 2009 at 8:11 PM The comments by the pro-coup lobbyists, compliments of the Clintons, read like cut-and-paste rationalizations. Simple facts: a facade of democratic process is not an actual democratic process. Witness our own system. If the people actually made laws, the bankers would have been thrown in prisons, the Bushes and Clintons would have been kept as far from our govt as possible, after all their hand-holding for Bill’s foundation and all the crimes in the Iran-Contra schemes. Bill also gave Blackwater their first contract. It’s in Scahill’s book.
The lobbyists ignore, of course, that Iran-Contra connection in current machinations in Honduras. They conveniently ignore U.S. and British telecoms taking over every independent and esp nationalized telecoms in other nations. They further cover their ears and scream la-la-la as it’s stated it all hit the fan when Zelaya planned to toss out the U.S. military base.
Constitutions are supposed to be amended as needed. Keeping presidents to one term assures that the rich and their military hold all real power. Witness in the U.S.: presidents have just two 4-yr terms, spend two of first four years positioning themselves for one re-election. Senators have 6-yr terms, with no limits, only state-wide not natl elections. Who serves the rich and military best? Why, the Senate!
Posted by Inaru on Oct 16, 2009 at 9:44 AM Is it a coincidence, or is the Rick Maifield an alias for this urban dictionary Mayfield? “Rick Mayfield: A sick, old bald man who gives erroneous secret military briefings with the red tennis ball hanging out.” Not only does Maifield [sic] ignore that Honduras’ constitution was written and approved under his [no doubt hero] Reagan of Iran-Contra fame. He apparently never heard of a poll, which is what was released prior to the planned election, and which triggered the marched-out-in-PJs ouster of Zelaya to our other utterly subordinated Latin American “partner”, Costa Rica. Oh, and of course, the School of the Americas training of the Honduran military equals “nothing to see here”!
Weinberg, nice work. Investigate the telecoms more, they’re fascinating in how immersed they are in all these machinations!
Posted by Inaru on Oct 16, 2009 at 9:53 AM Robin….The facts are that Obama is an outstanding individual….Your complains are completely unfounded…Blackhorse knows it must be difficult to be in a state of denial; but your response is so typical that it’s hard to take anything you said as a point of fact…Anyway , have a good time in your myopic little world; cause the rest of humanity is gonna move on…........
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 16, 2009 at 12:21 PM Inaru,
The Honduran Constitution is pretty clear. Weinberg (and you) is saying Honduras has to take into account who made the law before applying it. That is a poor rationalization for defying the law. Does that mean we need to analyze every law Robert Byrd had a hand in because he was once a member of the KKK? Should we review every Supreme Court ruling before Thurgood Marshall because all of the guys before him had to be racists (don’t forget Brown v. Board)? Of course it doesn’t.
The idea that the Honduran Constitution cannot be amended is a fallacy. There are a number of amendments already on the books. There are only a handful of articles that cannot be touched and this is one of them. You can argue the rationale of that all you like, but it is what it is.
It just makes sense that when the President overtly breaks the law that it is the phone companies that are to blame. I think they’re the reason that health care is expensive in the U.S. right now. Think of all the people calling from hopital rooms. Someone has to pay that bill. If a Band-Aid costs $4 in an emergency room, what does a phone call to a precious loved one cost in a time of need? It’s not torts that are jacking up the prices, its the damn phone bills. And you thought hotel rates were high…
This is off topic, but the one thing on which we can agree (and I’m all for comity) is that the U.S. Senate has an extraordinary amount of power. It has become the brakes of the legislative process where the President used to have that distinction. There’s both good and bad with that, depending on who’s in the Oval Office and what your point of view is. Of late, presidents have gotten particularly lax with the veto pen, especially when the legislation on the desk keeps getting bigger and bigger in size and scope. It seems there are no small bills anymore. There is no question in my mind that this has hurt the country.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Oct 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM Blackhorse, you’re trying to play the race card when the game is not about race. It’s like trying to use a football on the basketball court. It doesn’t work, and it makes you look rather foolish.
I assure you the last thing I’m concerned with is Obama’s skin color. That seems to be something he himself is obsessed with more than anyone. And you too, apparently.
But I am concerned with his worldview. His stance on Honduras is just one example that serves to illustrate the wrong-headedness of it.
Here’s another:
“The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society. And to that extent as radical as I think people tried to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, as least as it’s been interpreted, and Warren Court interpreted in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties, says what the states can’t do to you, says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn’t shifted.”— Barack Obama
His stance on Honduras and disregard for their constitution is really very understandable when you come to realize that he regrets his own.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 16, 2009 at 10:58 PM Thank you, Natalie for including Obama’s quotation. Not being a USA citizen but a Latin American (by the way, it’s about time you stop calling yourselves Americans as if the rest of us were not entitled to that word.THis is America too, you know, simply look at a map.) I would not have read it otherwise. His words are simply beautiful because after all that’s what the world should be about: sharing, not accumulating.
Long live Obama.
Posted by Maria on Oct 16, 2009 at 11:46 PM Exactly, Maria. It’s all about socialism. At least you’re honest about your love for it. Trouble is, not only is it counter to the very essence of this country and its founding documents, socialism doesn’t work in the long run, and the vast majority of people in this country know that and don’t want it, at least not in anything more than small manageable portions here and there. People have to lie about things in order to sneak it through.
That’s why this quote and the audio interview was not something that Obama wanted us to hear during the campaign. It wasn’t part of his ads. It was part of ads against him.
He has to lie about being an admirer of the free market. In Honduras, they have to lie about the nature of the “coup”.
I have nothing against sharing, I do it all the time. It’s the forced sharing that’s distasteful—and dangerous and deadly when taken to its inevitable conclusion.
Perhaps you better start with yourself on that supposedly bad “American” habit:
“I don’t recall the Irak people asking the USA to help them overthrow Sadam, or Mr. Bush asking the American people’s opinion about sending mercenary troops (which you all pay for) to do that, the only way this would have been a democratic choice. So, while USA is trying to tell everybody what they should do in their countries, you don’t seem to be consulted about what the American people need or want and that is not a democracy. I suggest you read ChalmersJohnson’s book “Blowback; The Costs and Consequences of American Empire”—Maria
And .......
“By the way, does the American constitution allow torture to prisoners, killing civilians in distant countries, and lying to their own people to start wars by which only profit is seeked?—Maria
Posted by Natalie on Oct 17, 2009 at 12:38 AM I use the word “American” so you understand who I am talking about, but in most Latin American countries USA citizens are referred to as “yankees” or “gringos”. I worked for many USA companies and whenever I used the word “estadounidense” I was told they didn’t like that word because of the final “dense”. But that is neither here nor there. I am still waiting for a reply to my last question quoted by you.
I have read all the messages with real surprise, as to the defense of Honduras constitution and the knowledge about its contents so many of you seem to have. I suppose that profound knowledge about small countries must also comprise the unjust conditions under which most of their populations live, the way their natural resources have been plundered, the way their armies were trained at the School of the Americas to supress, kill, or simply “disappear” hundreds of thousands of valuablel young people who resented the way things were. Oligarchies in all our countries have always been supported in their continuous coups against legally elected governments by the USA . This is the first time most countries in the world have said no to the overthrown of a Latin American government and that’s to be celebrated. In Argentina we had five presidents overthrown and the next day the military in charge were recognized by USA and Europe. We also had 30.000 “disappeared” people and nobody asked any embarrasing questions about it. When President Menem, a true neo-con who had Bush senior’s total back up decided he wanted to change the constitution so as to be re-elected, not only was he encouraged to do it, but Mr. Bush (father) sent him special vote counting machines as a loan. So, please, if some of you are going to the trouble of quoting full paragraphs of Honduras constitution, it would not do you any harm to read as many books as you can about Latin America’s history in the last 40 years. I highly recommend “Latin America’s open veins” by Eduardo Galeano.
Posted by Maria on Oct 17, 2009 at 4:20 AM “By the way, does the American constitution allow torture to prisoners, killing civilians in distant countries, and lying to their own people to start wars by which only profit is seeked?—Maria
Nice try at obfuscation Maria, conflating foreign policy during time of war with domestic constitutional issues, but I’ll answer nontheless.
Actually, I don’t believe there is anything in our constitution that says we can’t use some rough techniques to get information from foreign, un-uniformed terrorist mass-murderers in order to prevent more of their bigoted bludgeoning of civil society.
Nor is there anything that says we must not accidentally kill civilians during war with other countries. You may not like it, and we may not like it, and obviously the civilians don’t like it, but it’s certainly not “unconstitutional”.
The only person lying to his own people was Saddam Hussein. He had his own generals believing he had WMD. But the war was fought for many other reasons than just that.
It would be great if war was universally unconstitutional and that provision was universally followed, and terrorists had a similar constitution that said no terrorism and they followed it. It would have been great if Iraq’s constitution had something against murdering and genuinely torturing its own citizens (warning—graphic—don’t click unless you’re prepared to view actual torture) by the hundreds of thousands. But now we’re getting into fantasy land. We’ve got a real world to deal with, and things are not always rosy and sunny.
But even IF all your talking points were indeed unconstitutional, you miss the larger point. We, and most democratic countries have a couple of master, hopefully fail-safe mechanisms for ridding ourselves of someone who would ignore these constitutions, or be perceived to have done so, and you just don’t mess with ‘em unless you do so properly and legally: Elections and term limits.
The slow wheels of the courts may eventually do their thing, but in the mean time, they’re gone from power. That’s what Zelaya was attempting to get around, and once he had power for life, he would be able to deal with those pesky courts, media and legislatures, as his supporter and friend Hugo Chavez has done and continues to do. This kind of an attempt is clearly against their constitution, as it would be in most any democratic country.
I can assure you that if Bush had tried something similar here, even his most staunch supporters would be marching in the streets in opposition, as I would assume most people would do in your country, regardless of political party.
It really comes down to this: Are you for democracy, or are you not? Does democracy in your mind include leaders for life, or are you more inclined to want assurance in place that there will always be a limit to someone’s term, and thereby power?
“When President Menem, a true neo-con who had Bush senior’s total back up decided he wanted to change the constitution so as to be re-elected, not only was he encouraged to do it, but Mr. Bush (father) sent him special vote counting machines as a loan.”—Maria
I’m assuming here that his changing the constitution, which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, was done legally and properly. That is exactly the point regarding Zelaya. He attempted to do an illegal and improper end run around the process.
If Menem DID do it illegally, I certainly condemn both he and Bush as well. But that wouldn’t mean it’s now OK for Zelaya to do it.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 18, 2009 at 12:24 AM Maria your post is both thoughtful and correct…History is the best teacher , but it appears that folks of the Natalie elk are not concerned with the peoples facts..
If it ain’t on FOX news or some other corporate media “con”-glamorate , if it can’t be spun or spined into unrecognizable incohesivness; well then it ain’t fact…
This is the kind of nonsense that makes guys like Rush Limbaugh rich ; just a well spoken idiot , with no truth behind it…
Natalie blindly believes the ridiculous rhetoric of the rightwing so-called conservatives, she is all to happy to suspend whatever critical analysis skills she may have in order to fit in with the neo-cons agenda…
Additionally , she refuses to see how the Bush regime has systematically used mis-information to bamboozell the general public into believing that all that money that was used in the so-called war on terror was justified..So now this nation is beginning to realize that dept,and as it grows, so does the Bush fortune…
Now Blackhorse always believed that the word ” conservative ” might referr to someone who is slow to spend the peoples money…
But in this oligarchical dou-opoly everybody in the executive branch of gov’t spends your money on everything but us, the people that pay the taxes….
Sooo nuts to good ol’ Natalie and her cowardly response ; hiding behind the rhetorical nonsense of others; shame on you Natalie…
Shameful… She’s just like ol’ Rush ; unconcerned with critical thinking skills ;and more concerned with the ideology of sophism and ostentatiousness as it concerns the industrail military facist complex…
Bloody likely she’s gett’in a check from Goldman Sachs or some other large corporate oligarchical mutant….
Cheers to you Maria for being a truth-sayer, in this political climate that takes a certain kind of guts…
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 20, 2009 at 8:45 PM Does blackhorse believe that it’s OK to illegally attempt to change the constitution so you can hold office for as long as you like, just because you believe that socialism is the way to go?
That’s really what’s at issue here. It has nothing to do with the Bush “regime”, or Rush Limbaugh or Foxnews. That’s the true “rhetorical nonsense” here.
Either what Zelaya did was legal, or it was not. Nearly everyone in Honduras seems to think not, and even Zaleya fans have a hard time explaining why it was. Just because you like socialism, does that make you’re somehow above the law and immune to the rules of the constitution?
Looks like Zelaya had plans to commit voter fraud.
I guess that’s OK too, in the name of socialism.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 20, 2009 at 11:49 PM Natalie….You are either very confused or very corrupt; eitherway your reasonings about your support for the removal of Zelaya are extremely inconsistent with so-called US policy…
Every example you state for your support of the coup is a red light that the US gov’t runs regularly….
To this horse; is appears to be the height of hypocracy to loath Zelaya; making accusations concerning his so-called criminal behavoir ; when the US gov’t has committed these same violations of Constitutional law , not to mention international law…
Why are you so concerned with the so-called twig in Zelaya’s eye when there is a tree trunk sticking out of the eye of US POLICY ? ?
Frankly the political business of Hunduras is the concern of the Hunduran people…
If they are not in opposition to Zelaya being in office for 99 years ; it’s their affair….
Centainly not yours , and not the concern of the covert operators from the US ; or other G-20 nations to interfere in the policies of another country..
You accuse Blackhorse of being pro dictatorships and pro socialism…
But you advocate “IMPERIALISM “; what kind of confused mislogic is this ? ? ?
Finally there are elements of socialism in your so-called utopianistic free market economy,; as a matter of fact, the US economy wouldn’t work without socialistic measures in place to insure suffciency in this so-called capitalistic cash flow economy…
Ain’t whats good for the goose; good for the gander ? ? ?
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 21, 2009 at 8:39 PM I didn’t accuse you of anything, blackhorse, except perhaps of missing the point, which you continue to do. I don’t advocate “imperialism”, either.
I asked you whether you approve of someone breaking the law in order to change the constitution in order to allow himself to be ruler for life, because THAT PERSON believes that this is the only way that the stupid people will get the socialism they need.
“Frankly the political business of Hunduras is the concern of the Hunduran people…
If they are not in opposition to Zelaya being in office for 99 years ; it’s their affair….”Precisely. The Honduran people, their courts, their legislature are indeed opposed* to Zelaya being in office for 99 years, and the way he was attempting to bring it about. But the rest of the world, given cover by the misguided U.S. administration, is interfering with their fervent wish that he not remain in power, and their belief that he was ousted legitimately and legally, having basically brought it on himself.
* “While in Honduras, I spoke to dozens of Hondurans, from nonpartisan members of civil society to former Zelaya political allies, from Supreme Court judges to presidential candidates and even personal friends of Mr. Zelaya. Each relayed stories of a man changed and corrupted by power. The evidence of Mr. Zelaya’s abuses of presidential power—and his illegal attempts to rewrite the Honduran Constitution, a la Hugo Chávez—is not only overwhelming but uncontroverted.”
“Frankly the political business of Hunduras is the concern of the Hunduran people…”
...... exactly!
Posted by Natalie on Oct 21, 2009 at 9:44 PM So how did I miss the point , suga ? ? ?
You seem to believe there is some kind of universal belief among the Honduran population that a coup is the way to handle the situation…
Blackhorse does not agree with this analyse, in fact my feeling is that this is a covert false flag operation..
The issue of the Honduran Constitution is secondary , in my opinion…
You keep making this the excuse for the coup, I believe it is just that , an excuse….
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 23, 2009 at 7:09 PM Blackhorse,
There’s a reason for that “excuse”...it’s the law. Following your unimpeachable logic, Zelaya can simply pick and choose which laws he wants to follow without consequence. If that is not what you are saying, then do you believe there should be any consequences for Zelaya assuming he broke the law? You’d surprise me with any answer other than “No.”
Using the term “coup” (short for coup d’ etat) is a misnomer, used not only by you, but by journalists and politicians wishing to leave a (their) slant in people’s minds as to what occurred. From Webster’s online:
coup d’ etat - a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group
The government is still very much in place and the two other branches were very much involved in the NON-VIOLENT ouster of Zelaya. By definition, this was less of a “coup” than the Kennedy assassination. An impeachment conviction of an American president, which has never occurred, would be the best parallel in the U.S. The main difference in Honduras is that the presidential branch of government is not run by Zelaya anymore. That is a huge departure from what people traditionally consider a “coup” to be.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Oct 23, 2009 at 7:54 PM Additionally , we see that violence is being used to put down those in opposition to this coup…All these ” happy ” citizens of the Honduras that you have referred to, are it seems at odds with your inaccurate analysis of what is really going on…Elderly citizens , school teachers , anybody involved in the resistance of the illegal removal of the lawfully elected Zelaya are being targeted…
Zelaya is at odds with the wealthy of his nation , they are false flagging this guy , because he is attempting to improve the conditions for poor Hondurans…
Natalie your fantasy salutations for this coup are a total misrepresentation of fact , apparently you are drunk in your need to fit in with the facist imperalist policies of the neo-conservatives…......
I also seem to remember you advocating for the fact that violence and the unprovoked murder of the Honduran citizens was just a fact of life ; so Blackhorse has little faith in you really coming around on this subject matter…All of your denials to the contrary Natalie ; like it or not ; you are a facist neo-conservative imperializing sympathizer, on the wrong side of history , morally , factually and actually…
What an utter shame…....
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 23, 2009 at 8:17 PM Skeeter…You are in fantasyland also…Look ” thee plane…thee plane…”
People , innocent people are being murdered by your new so-called gov’t…....
All these laws you and your fiend Natalie are crying about , seem to have more to do with Zelaya’s attempts to help the poor citizens of Honduras and very little to do with any real violations of the Honduran Constitution…
Look , just quit all of your fake ass sophist constitutional nonsense and admit that you and Natalie are in favor of a violent military takeover of a legally elected foreign citizen ” Zelaya ” and the unlawful overthrow of his Gov’t ; point blank , just own up to it…..
You and Natalie believe if you have the ” MIGHT ” then it has to be ” RIGHT “-wing neo-conservative imperialism….
Why are you ashamed of your beliefs ???
Could it be that your core beliefs are in fact unlawful , decietful and moralistically unsound ????
Things that make you go hmmmm…...
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM For goodness sake, Blackhorse, don’t waste any more energy and time, if you read the Honduras Constitution carefully, you will surely find Article 12456, item 43b which clearly states: “Should the president wish to start a popular consultation, he will be removed from office, making sure he is wearing his night clothes and be sent to another country, so as not to have to go about the trouble of judging him or giving him a fair trial and making sure no legal proofs of his misconduct are needed, and can, instead, be spread through the net “.
Have a good week-end, my friend.
Posted by Maria on Oct 23, 2009 at 11:19 PM Gosh Maria, I was just about to complement everyone on keeping this discussion going…
it is interesting that a constitution is meaningless to blackhorse &, it seems, many of the left around the world. I guess individual lilberty is a pesky little impediment to those who want to rule over others.
Let’s not forget the facts (more pesky things for the statist) regarding this:
Zelaya’s move was unconstitutional
He was importing ballots to hold his own election apart from the country itself
He already had the election results ready to disseminate to the press & populace
The election DID.NOT.HAPPEN
He already had the election results ready to disseminate to the press & populace (if this doesn’t strike one as odd… )Hopefully the tide will turn against the statism & socialism in Central & South America, & the people will enjoy freedoms instead of being chattel, as are the poor Cubans.
Posted by Robin Ray on Oct 23, 2009 at 11:32 PM I figured you couldn’t answer the question Blackhorse and it’s only one law we’re talking about. I’m sure counting up to that number is confusing for you, so I won’t make you do it again. I think you’re just stringing random words together at this point. You have no idea what you are talking about. If you did, I might actually take offense to what you wrote, but I don’t. What I find particularly amusing is that you attack everyone that disagrees with you, but you can’t touch what they write, only what you think they believe, which may or may not be what you say it is. Your premise of other people’s beliefs is based on your own misguided preconceptions of what someone that disagrees with you would be like. You reveal yourself as more of a sophist than any of us.
Maria, I’ll give you credit for pointing out the one area that the Honduran government mishandled getting Zelaya out of office. I’m sure having never had this happen before, there was some question as to how to bring Zelaya’s deposement to fruition. If the current negotiation is to bring Zelaya back to stand trial, I don’t see a problem with that. I don’t think that’s on the table though for the interest of both parties. I believe Zelaya enjoys being a martyr for the international community at this point since he doesn’t have to defend what he did (it’s just easier not to). The pro-Zelaya people here cannot even bring themselves to defend his actions. They just want to impeach the motives of everyone else. The Honduran government doesn’t want the possibility of Zelaya coming to power just so he can go on trial, which I’m sure is a Zelaya precondition (it’d be mine if I were him). Hence the stalemate that exists today.
Be honest with yourself. I agree and I’ll readily admit, if Zelaya were not guilty of the charges, he should be back in power until January, regardless of his political beliefs. Maria or Blackhorse, can you bring yourselves to admit that if Zelaya did what was alleged, he should have been removed from power at the first opportunity? If you can’t honestly say “yes”, you’re just arguing for an agenda and not for what is right. That would be truly pitiful.
I’m assuming no deal will be in place before the elections next month. The question is whether or not the new leader is legitimate. I don’t see why not. The election was going to happen prior to these events with the same people that were running before Zelaya’s ouster. The only way its not legitimate is if there is widespread voter fraud. That, or if someone imports a bunch of completed ballots before the election. Why would anyone do something as short-sighted as that?
Posted by skeeter_jr on Oct 24, 2009 at 6:18 AM Maria ; thanks , a sense of humor is necessary when dealing with dinosaurs…..
To the rest of you folks ; maria is correct ; this subject is so elementary that a first grader could see this a mile away…But such is the truth of the youth..
Skeeter , Robin , Nata-lie or anyone else that is all for the slaughter of the innocent , Blackhorse would suggest that you go to Al-Jazeere ( English version) or DemocracyNow.org and get some facts on this subject from human beings that are actually on the ground in Honduras…
I , for my own sake , will deal with your nonsense responses at another time….
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 26, 2009 at 7:34 PM Apparently my comments didn’t post….
Again….Natalie , Skeeter , Robin , where the hell are you guys ???
Did you check out Al-Jazeera and the DemocracyNow news link ? ? ?
Is it possible that now that you have some real investagative news about the situation in the Honduras; that you ain’t got nothin’ to say ???
Blackhorse says possible cause we all know how you guys hate the facts about any real situation in the world ; especially if it involves morality and reasoning abilities….
Anywho….Talk to the me…....Pretty pleeeaaase…..
I’ll play nice, really I will ; even thou you guys are as wrong as rain on this subject….
Oh snap ; looky here all that crap about a ” non-violent coup d’ etat ” was just a foul ass ideological fart on your part skeeter, and poor Nata-lie ; no unlawful attempt at rewritting the Honduran Constitution; just a little ol’ rider asking the good people of the Honduras if , if ,if they wish to rewrite the constitution, so that it is a document that actually meets the needs of the masses in the Honduras and not just the greedy little ostentatious needs of the rich….
Oh….That underhanded bastard Zelaya, how dare he actually care about the needs of the people that he was constitutionally , legally and morally elected to govern….
Blackhorse is amazed you three couldn’t see this one a mile away , pull your freakin’ collective heads out the sand , or maybe your ASSets….
Posted by blackhorse on Oct 30, 2009 at 9:22 PM Blackhorse, Robin works & was a bit busy. Robin looked at those links, as well as much of the plethora of information regarding this situation available through the wonderful & world-wide web. Your assertions fall flat on the preponderance of evidence.
It looks like Zelaya will be reinstated, unfortunately. The idiocy of US policy toward this is likely a large part of the reason, & it’s sad. Perhaps we can have an intelligent & functional foreign policy in 2013? I pray for the people of Honduras, that Zelaya will be held in check & not allowed to circumvent the constitution again.
Posted by Robin Ray on Oct 30, 2009 at 9:57 PM Quoting below Mr. Roberto Micheletti, acting President of Honduras and a member of Zelaya’s own “Liberal Party”, whatever that means in Honduras. It looks to me like this “Liberal Party”, as opposed to the party of the same name in this country, is all about being against what THEY perceived to be illegal and disqualifying actions on the part of Zelaya, which THEY judged to be part of an attempt to extend his presidency beyond the constitutional limit. Not to mention the apparent fact that pre-prepared self-serving referendum results were found on his computer subsequently.
“The Supreme Court, <u>by a 15-0 vote</u>, found that Mr. Zelaya had acted illegally by proceeding with an unconstitutional “referendum,†and it ordered the Armed Forces to arrest him. The military executed the arrest order of the Supreme Court because it was the appropriate agency to do so under Honduran law.
Eight of the 15 votes on the Supreme Court were cast by members of Mr. Zelaya’s own Liberal Party. Strange that the pro-Zelaya propagandists who talk about the rule of law forget to mention the unanimous Supreme Court decision with a majority from Mr. Zelaya’s own party. Thus, Mr. Zelaya’s arrest was at the instigation of Honduran’s constitutional and civilian authorities—not the military.
The Honduran Congress voted overwhelmingly in support of removing Mr. Zelaya. The vote included a majority of members of Mr. Zelaya’s Liberal Party.
Independent government and religious leaders and institutions—including the Supreme Electoral Tribunal, the Administrative Law Tribunal, the independent Human Rights Ombudsman, four-out-of-five political parties, the two major presidential candidates of the Liberal and National Parties, and Honduras’s Catholic Cardinal—all agreed that Mr. Zelaya had acted illegally”.
Somehow I can’t imagine that— if GW Bush had been found by a majority of the congress to have violated the constitution, along with the unanimous agreement of our Supreme Court, including votes by Thomas, Scalia, Roberts and Alito to remove him from office—you blackhorse would be arguing that he should stay. I certainly wouldn’t be.
Could it possibly be, that instead of this being some kind of “right-wing power grab”, it was, as has been described* by Zelaya’s own former supporters, a case of an individual simply going power mad, with a little help and inspiration from the hypnotic grandiose experts on the subject in Caracas, Havana and sadly even Washington D.C.?
* “While in Honduras, I spoke to dozens of Hondurans, from nonpartisan members of civil society to former Zelaya political allies, from Supreme Court judges to presidential candidates and even personal friends of Mr. Zelaya. Each relayed stories of a man changed and corrupted by power. The evidence of Mr. Zelaya’s abuses of presidential power—and his illegal attempts to rewrite the Honduran Constitution, a la Hugo Chávez—is not only overwhelming but uncontroverted.”
Posted by Natalie on Oct 31, 2009 at 3:43 AM omg Natalie, get a life! You lost, end of story, thank God. If it were up to you, we’d still have black people and non-property-owning white people counted as 2/3 of a human being. Women would still not be able to vote.
Constitutions get amended in democracies, Natalie, you poor FOX-fed thing. Supreme Courts can overstep their constitutional authority. Legislators can be bought - or are you telling me that doesn’t happen here?
The Honduran constitution was written to keep the president weak and the military strong, in the “good ole days” of the coups. The constitution Zelaya and a vast number of Hondurans seek to change was written when Honduras was used by the U.S. as the staging ground for the Iran/Contra crimes of Reagan. Those days are over. Get over it. And as much as I’ve grown to despise Chavez for cozying up to Ahmadinejad, you should be disgusted that we traded drugs for weapons for Iran. We armed both sides in the Iran/Iraq War, with drug money, dammit.
Nowhere in the constitution of Honduras does it say a President who breaks the law gets marched out by the military, in his pajamas, deported with guns in his face. Absolutely nothing in the referendum President Zelaya proposed would have given him another term, never mind a lifetime term. If you could read in Spanish, never mind all the links in English that you’ve been given by good folks here, you’d know that.
I’m glad his ties with Chavez were questioned and now severed. Chavez has lost his mind supporting Ahmadinejad. But Zelaya sought sanctuary with Brazil, not with Venezuela although Chavez offered it.
If you’d study any American history whatsoever, you’d know our presidential terms have been changed, then changed back. We’ve had a three-term president. Go look it up.
Now go on and find another FOX-directed cause, and quit acting like you give a fig about the people of Honduras. I’m sure if you met one here - and there are many here thanks to the destitution in Honduras - you’d start screaming “Illegal Alien!”, call him or her a Mexican, and holler for the Minute Men to shoot on sight. Good grief.
Posted by Inaru on Oct 31, 2009 at 6:05 AM Inaru, all your irrelevant off-the-mark efforts to pigeonhole fail to address just why such a vast majority of the congress and Supreme Court in Honduras voted to strip Zelaya of his presidency. Not just opposition figures, but most in his own party.
Micheletti’s editorial addressed the reasoning for removing Zelaya from the country, and he admitted that it was not necessarily ideally handled. But that is somewhat after-the-fact, and not really relevant to the original, central judgement.
It was apparently the judgement of those in authority in Honduras, again including lots and lots of those in his own party, that his intent in putting forth the referendum was to effect his staying in power. Not my judgement, but their judgment. Your argument is not with me, it is with them.
The United States 22nd amendment in 1947 made it law that Presidents could only serve two terms. Prior to that, it was generally considered somewhat bad form to hang on for more, but it was not illegal. FDR’s election to a third term was entirely legal and proper, since he was operating under the rules that were in effect at the time. Zelaya attempted to break these kinds of rules in Honduras, at least according to their Supreme Court, which presumably should know about such things, and presumably also speak Spanish.
I don’t believe that Presidential terms in the U.S. have “changed, and then changed back”. They changed, or more accurately were clarified and set in stone, but that’s been it. Of course certain Democrats have sought to overturn the amendment, as is their nature to impose their power on the people, instead of the other way around.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 31, 2009 at 7:12 AM Inaru….Never assume that Natalie actually knows anything about the world other than what her handlers what her to know….That’s how brainwashed people behave….
Aside from all of my cynical statements ; to the contrary Blackhorse has sympathy for the plight of folks such as Natalie and the rest , we all have people like her in our families or even friends that thing that way . We all know that they are misinformed or even crazy…
So whats a sane person to do? ? ? ...
Terminal ostentatiousness or crippling arrogance always leads to incompedent pronouncements…
Lookit ol’ gal Natalie believes that a bunch of guys with box cutters , box cutters mind you ; could pull off the so-called terrorist 9/11attacks , by themselves , without some form of covert assistance…Despite all of the evidence to the contrary; she is going to stay with her unremitting, unscrupulous and unsound opinions…
Now just stop and think about that lack of reasoning skills at this point in the game, you have to go hmmmmmm ? ? ?
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 2, 2009 at 10:27 PM So now we’ve got a 9/11 truther fantasist attempting to lecture us on “reasoning skills”.
Hilariously ironic.
Reason us this, blackman. Why did the Supreme Court in Honduras, half of which are members of Zelaya’s own “liberal” party, vote unanimously that he acted illegally??
Could it possibly be because he did? Hmmmmmmm???
Posted by Natalie on Nov 4, 2009 at 2:22 AM Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think blackhorse is the type of person to be concerned with right & wrong, legal or illegal. Ignoring the fact that Zelaya had already predetermined the results of his sham election (which, BTW, didn’t happen) has not mattered. Illegal, wrong, it doesn’t matter if it’s to get the self-anointed “intelligentsia” in power to rule over the serfs like you & I are, Natalie. Cutsey condescension is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy…
Posted by Robin Ray on Nov 4, 2009 at 3:06 AM Nata-lie , again with the false representations of fact , that dog is already dead , the vote that counts now is the reinstatement vote ; which to my knowledge has not happened…
Nata-lie , Blackhorse remembers your idiotic denials of the rabbits ad infinitum posts concerning the 9/11 hoax….
Always with the illegal nonsense , Blackhorse has to agree with Inaru , if you actually met or had actually contact with anybody from the Honduras , you’d be calling the INS to come get these so-called ” illegal aliens”.......
Just as fake coming in as you are going out, just a shamful sophist nuckle-head…..
And Robin , just a babblin’ away about nothin’.... “Condescension is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy “...Please , your excessive over the top amerikanizationalistic ostentatious cripple act is as old as that dead pinheaded crack’a Reagan, and his phobically inspired pathological redbaiting anti-communistic rant….
You my dear are the phenotypical shmoo….....
If ya don’t stand for somethin’, ya’ll fall for anythang ! ! !
Good day…............................
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 4, 2009 at 10:21 PM “just a babblin’ away about nothin’.....”
If you’d said this about yourself, I’d have to retract what I said about your “reasoning skills”, minus the 9/11 nonsense of course.
Howbout babblin’ away about just why it was that Z was so overwhelmingly judged to be guilty of misconduct by the Honduran legislature and courts? Every SC justice got it wrong? They were all bribed?
Your best argument appears to be ..... That constitution is not written the way I want it to be, and it makes it hard to Chavez-ize the country, so it’s OK for me and Z to ignore it.
Of course Z’s “reinstatement”, if it happens, will not be an acknowledgment of the righteousness of his cause, but merely an “elegant diplomatic exit”.
Blackhorse and Rabbit—Cutsey condescension “ad infinitum”.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 4, 2009 at 11:03 PM Natalie , dear , may I call you sweety ; this is why Zelaya proposed an addendum to the constitution ; that hopeful the Honduran people would seize the oportunity to rewrite a constitution that fits the needs of regular working Hondurans…
Those of his class ( Zelaya ), meaning the rich , obviously are not in agreement with this agenda Natalie , it’s really just that simple Natalie….
Your other nonsensical rant has to do with a basic chance at democracy , something you Natalie have been ranting about all along ; but when put on a plate in front of you , ol’ gal Natalie makes up some nonsensical excuse for again not recognizing the rights of other people
Now come up with some other petty rant , you are boring the Blackhorse…..
Yawwwwnnnn…..........................
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 5, 2009 at 2:29 PM “The issue of the Honduran Constitution is secondary , in my opinion”—blackhorse
That’s all that really needs to be said, and you said it all .... yourself.
That seems to be the sum total of the argument presented by supporters of socialistic, state-run, opposition media quashing power-for-life regimes in Central and South America and around the world.
If a pesky constitution stands in our way, we’ll either ignore it, or illegally change it.
Remember people. Once you surrender power to these types, you’ll never get it back. The day will come when you, too, have a beef with your supreme leader, and you’ll find yourself with zero ability to be heard, and zero ability to change anything.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 5, 2009 at 7:02 PM Natalie what types are you talking about ? ? ? George Bush , Dick Cheney ? ? ?
You continue to overlook the fact that apparently the good folks of the Honduras want a new, new , new constitution…You ding batty ol’ girl , no one is affirming that a well written constitution that works for the people of the nation in question should not be followed…
Again and again you over play your hand .....
Are you stupid or just a ding bat racist that doesn’t believe in the rights of the masses…........
This nation ; amerika has just completed one of the largest socialistic bailouts in history , unchecked free market capitalist greed has virtaully ruined the world economy…
And you ol Natalie are worried about some folks in the Honduras ; laying down some type of bullshit decree about the evils socialism and dictatorial rule….
Shit woman you can’t even change the crap that is going on in amerika and you trying to regulate in south amerika…
Damn , it’s the policies of numb-nuttless idiots such as yourself that folks in the Honduras are working so hard to reverse….
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 5, 2009 at 10:16 PM This article is played, old news, irrelevant. Zelaya will get a day in the sun, only to have it whisked away in January. Big deal. Now I can buy Honduran shirts and bananas again. Yippee. The “truth commission” will investigate what went on. My interest was the justification of the U.S.‘s knee-jerk reaction to reports of a “coup”, which I now firmly believe it to have been completely misguided and reactionary.
Of course the Blackhorses of the world will shout conspiracy and coverup for all that will listen. I won’t be one of them. Everything is a sham and we’re all dupes according to Blackhorse. To him there is no free will except for what the big-wigs in the corporate world allow us. Thank God the numbers of his ilk are self-limiting. Such mindless, ineloquent babble is easy to wallow in, as he often exhibits. It is also hard to read without experiencing a gag reflex, as I am attesting to now. Blackhorse, I’m glad you don’t even represent the “other side”. You represent yourself, and quite poorly at that. You haven’t offered a fig of prose that is even remotely thoughtworthy, let alone enlightening. Here and now, I’m casting off your chains of aborted “thought”.
All others on both sides of the issue, thanks for conversing on this topic and refraining from insults (mostly). I was truly out to find the “Zelaya side” of the story to see if the U.S. position was justified. Now that I understand that there really isn’t a credible defense of Zelaya and America’s involvement was sham policy (how’s that for change, seems like the new order of things), I have no use for this forum any longer.
Farewell all. Yes, even Blackhorse.
Posted by skeeter_jr on Nov 5, 2009 at 11:03 PM Looks like “cutsey condescension” has devolved into potty-mouth paranoia. Seems to always be the progression of anyone of the “truther” mindset, presumably due to the frustration of not having a cogent, reality based argument.
“no one is affirming that a well written constitution that works for the people of the nation in question should not be followed..”
Again, you reaffirm blackhorse that your position/argument does not venture beyond what I speculated earlier:
That constitution is not written the way I want it to be, and it makes it hard to Chavez-ize the country, so it’s OK for me and Z to ignore it.”
If you’d clicked on the link in my post above, you’d know what “types” I was talking about. They’re the types that can’t handle giving up power after the prescribed period, and find it necessary to demonize and finally forcibly extinguish opposing voices.
This behavior is not that of Bush or Cheney, or any U.S. President ....... so far.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 6, 2009 at 6:57 AM Thanks skeeter and Natalie it is good to see you two go, make sure to take all of your myopic friends with you…
Interestingly though skeeter , how do you know what most folks are thinking…
You remind me of post world war 2 nazi germany , nobody saw what was coming around the corner , everybody believed the rhetoric of Hitler ( Bush), and nobody was willing to change until it was tooo late….........
Additionally your rhetorical musings are in fact extremely similar to the rantings of the right -wingers now and then….Ramping up the fear , but at the same time telling everyone that good ol’ uncle bubba will take care of those so-called foriegn bastards….......
Good day and goodluck…...............................
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 6, 2009 at 2:14 PM Ohhhhhh Natalie my dear….....
Blackhorse has read your links….
The Wall Street Journal is exactly the type of periodical that one would not read to get the inside info on matters concerning the rights of regular people….
See Natalie my dear and skeeter also for that matter , this ” horse ” is less concerned with the law of the land as opposed to the human rights of the masses of people that will be held in account for said laws , that you and skeetey seem to trumpet over the will of the people…
Laws ; anybodies laws are only as good as the people or individuals enforcing them…When that enforcement is excessive or unequally applied , the people or more commonly referred to as the ” masses ” have the moral , spiritual and judical right to break said laws in order to attempt to form a more perfect union…..
It’s that what ol’ George Washington did in revolting against the British…
You see ol’ girl if you had just a smathering of knowledge concerning history , you would understand this basic , again basic hue-man right of human beings…
But you and your ostentatious elk only care about the resources that can be stolen(free traded ) from these indigenous people.. Therefore you willfully overlook this little cliche in your so-called perspective….
Additionally , your blind eye to the sinful nature of US foriegn policy only adds fuel to the fire of your ignorant assertions concerning the rights and well fair of indigenous folks all over the world…
Martin Luther King said it over 40 years ago and unfortunately it is still true today….” Amerika is the greatest pervader of violence the world has ever seen ”
Unfortunately for you and folks of your opinion ; your perilously pernicious ignorance of these facts , leds you to be a cheerleader for the most perverse policies humanity has ever had the displeasure of persevering against….
Now Blackhorse is aware of your sad attempts at permutations to the contrary ; but thats all they are sad and pathetically pathological ( in other words, in case you don’t understand the big words ” you sick in the head “.......
Bye now…................
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 6, 2009 at 10:26 PM P.S…... In post 11/6/09 at 2: 14PM Blackhorse made reference to ” post ” world war 2 germany , when obviously I meant ” pre ” as in per-vue or more directly pre-war…...my badd.
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 6, 2009 at 10:49 PM Darn Blackhorse, you’re reduced to the “Bush=Hitler” argument - after Bush is out of office??? You can do better than that. I would think one wanting to converse & debate topics would want differing opinions - otherwise, one would be in a “yep yep” echo chamber.
Funny, in my view & study of human rights I’ve never seen the right to be ruled by a despot - can you point to the page in the guide that’s on please???
Posted by Robin Ray on Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 AM “See Natalie my dear and skeeter also for that matter , this †horse †is less concerned with the law of the land as opposed to the human rights of the masses of people that will be held in account for said laws , that you and skeetey seem to trumpet over the will of the people .....”
Congratulations. You have been selected for the O.J. jury. Johnnie says go to the head of the box. You answered that perfectly.
What you seem to be agitating for here is anarchy. Do you really think that’s going to end up benefiting anyone really in the long run, or is it going to result in destruction of property and relationships? I think the latter. If you don’t like the law, work to change it. But there are legal, proper and ultimately lasting ways of doing so. If you just march in the streets and bully the law into effect, soon someone else will just think, hey, why not me this time with my law?
I’d wager that if an angry mob of poor people were to form at Blackhorse’s porch demanding all the stuff he’d worked for, he’d quickly be on the phone to the police. Perhaps not. But then he’d have nothing, and soon the mob would have nothing, because they didn’t work for it, and thereby wouldn’t nurture and preserve it. They’d just feel guilty and crumby about it.
The only thing about socialism that fits in with human nature is a few select individuals quite humanly and regularly try to get around the work part, and live off the “masses”. If you take away the masses’ power to ever eject these types, you’ve effectively taken away their most basic and fundamental “human right”.
You wouldn’t want to do that, ....... would you? I’m sad to say that I have to conclude that you just might.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 7, 2009 at 4:50 AM Oh my poor , poor Natalie , you are so confused I don’t know where to start , it’s just utterly impossible to get you off of that ostentatious right-wing facist loving soapbox of yours…..My question to you ( because Blackhorse will not attempt to address any of your recalcitrantly phrased concerns) ...
Why do you believe that your ultra nationalist white supremacist perspective is sustainable ,especially in a world economy where the people that have been traditionally under-represented are demanding reparations for resourse that have been stolen ( your code word for said theft is of course ” free trade ” , but none the less )? ? ?
These folks you write about are not going to be at my door , they are going to be at your door , and they will kick it down…Thats what happens with stolen property ; and we all know how much you wish to adhere to the law of the land…
Natalie ; my dear, by now surely you must know Blackhorse is of this class of folks ; afrikan people stolen from their homeland , brought to the shores of this so-called amerika ; lied about and tortured….And you; trying to blame me for your ancestors uncouth behavior…....
What are you going to do when YOUR well runs dry ? ? ?
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 9, 2009 at 10:20 PM Robin any sane individual who has been paying any attention at all to world affairs would know that George Bush the ” grand puba ” of the neo-conservative facist propaganda machine is extremely relevant to the discussion of any of these objectives…....
But you are correct about one fact; Blackhorse can and does ” do better ” as you have stated ; unfortunately for you my dear, you cannot and do not ” do better “..One would suggest that you apply yourself to a more human perspective and eliminate the need to be a flunky for rundown ideologies that have no reconcilable ends…
If one is called to consider if the ends justify the means, then one should also know that they do not…Just a piece of advice..
You can go back to your meds , please forgive my intrusion into your self-abasement…..........
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 9, 2009 at 10:44 PM Oh, Blackhorse, you should know better by now. Sophist writing to these columns take turns at getting you mad not because they think they are right, but because they need to know how wise common people are getting and so they can adjust their tactics. IF they really think this system is wonderful and USA is only sacrificing some of its soldiers and investing good money just to spread freedom, and having the rule of law applied in every country, they would be enjoying their happy world and would not waste their precious time trying to convince a poor black horse of their merits. The problem is too many people around the world are their victims and they need to know what is in their minds. So, I will close with one of Krishnamurti’s best sentences_ “Ends don’t justify means, means are the end”, or “Accumulation brings about pain”. Best wishes to you, my friend.
Posted by Maria on Nov 9, 2009 at 11:29 PM So it looks like I pegged you accurately. An O.J. juror. Tell me just how the general public now views O.J. and the people on that jury who let the murderer get away with ...... murder.
I will tell you. O.J. is not elevated. He is not absolved in anything more than the most technical sense. He is a reclusive disgrace and a laughing stock. And those on the jury actually set back the cause of racial equality and harmony. Because they ignored reality, evidence and the rule of law in order to sooth their inner anger and biases. In so doing, they insulted the sensibilities of the vast majority of Americans—black, white and in between—who respect the law and expect murderers to be punished. The vast majority who would surely not want politics and reverse racism interfering with the judgement of someone who beyond a shadow of a doubt killed someone near and dear to them.
This is the same phenomenon at work in the minds of those defending folks like Chavez and Zelaya. The rule of law be damned—if it makes me feel better to take that which I’ve not earned from those who have earned, that’s justification enough. Let them rule for life it it gets me crumbs at the expense of those who actually produced them. I’ll stifle competition within government for the best ways to serve me. I’ll enable one man to consolidate so much power that nobody can ever propose anything that might threaten that power—and live.
If you think going down this path is ever going to result in anything lasting and noble, you are sadly mistaken. There is a time to realize that nobody alive today in this country ever owned a slave, nor would they want to. It’s time to realize that the only people continuing to (mentally) enslave folks today are the race hustlers who keep beating it into their heads that they are indeed still slaves—for entirely selfish and profit-related reasons. “Look, they did it to you! Get ‘em, mob ‘em. Don’t stop until I force a check out of ‘em that will go mostly to my personal bank account. You can have some crumbs.”
I am not an “ultra nationalist white supremacist”, you jackass, and I would never steal from anyone. Looks like you’d have no qualms in the reverse. Perhaps you need to look inward rather than outward for solutions to your perceived problems in the world.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 10, 2009 at 12:12 AM Maria….Number one thank you ...Two blackhorse is not poor , but rich in the knowledge of self and by the way hard work…Natalie doesn’t hurt the horse ; she only digs herself deeper into the depths of her own confusion.
I will go to work and address Natalie and Robins numb- nuttyness at a later date…..
Bye now…........
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 10, 2009 at 2:32 PM Natalie ; what the hell are you babbling about now…..
Blow J , I mean OJ ,what the blepping _uck does that have to do about any of this…..
But I will throw you this bone , OJ is a idiot , but being an idiot doesn’t make you a murderer…The police dropped the ball on that case , sloppy investigative work , offc. Fuhrman walking around for two days with OJ’s blood sample in his pocket…The whole case was miss handled…Nicole had all kinds of people coming threw her home , doing drugs while the children were home…Anybody could have committed that crime , but the police focused in on OJ because he’s a dumb ass…
If Blow J was involved in this conversation, he would be in agreement with the Nata-lie , he had on a number of occasions implemented that racism was an excuse that black folks pulled out of their pocket when needed…He swore off black women as being incompetent and inadequate as a mate…The man was a poster child for the rich and self loathing…Just your type of afrikan amerikan , brainwashed and happy to be so….Then the fool when out and got convicted of the dumbest crime a fool in his situation could get convicted of…
So now Natalie , you have one of the few afrikan amerikans in amerika that would go along with your baffoonery , and you kicked him to the curb…What wrongs with you child ,don’t you know a friend when you see one; maybe you can get that other clown Clarence the Thom-ass….
Please , little woman if OJ was still rich and famous , you’d be in line to suck his _ick , just like all of the other low-self esteem _hores that he so loved to chase….
That’s why the dumdass was with Nicole ; because she was EZ to play , the same way you are EZ for those neo-conservative right-wing facist handles that keep the Natalie stupid to the game thats vomiting down on your little pee-brained head….
OJ….LOL
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 10, 2009 at 10:34 PM Additionally , racial harmony ; Natalie racial harmony to someone such as yourself is black folks keepin’ their mouths shut and going along to get along…Racial harmony , you have no, absolutely no freakin’ idea of what the bleep you are talking about…you are more lost on this issue than any other…
You are indeed one of the most extremely misinformed individuals on this planet ; truely myopically putrefied…
I never thought Blackhorse would say this , because I am all for letting the discussion go were it goes , but Natalie dear ; return to Zelaya and the Honduras….lol lolo lol
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 10, 2009 at 10:48 PM Finally Natalie dear , you have gone on ad infinitum about the law being the raison d’etre of all humankind , so obviously you understand that a jury in a capital murder case has the responsiblity to uphold the letter of said law ; true? ? ?
So if there is any doubt in the collective minds of the jury , they are bound by the law of the land to come back with a verdict of not guilty ; true…
So what is your problem child….
Don’t trust black folks eeh ? ? ?
Or is it that you trust black folks as long as they agree with your bull_hit analysis of any particular circumstance or situation….
Hmmmm ; not only are you a geo- economically challenged right-wing racist , but also a good ol’ down home all-amerikan bigot…
Natalie ; sweety , going threw life as a bigot and a racist is not a good thang , and then trying to lecture folks on morality and racial harmony…Pleease spare us…
Seems like you got more in your mouth than the ol’ girl can chew…eeh
You render the Blackhorse as truely one of the most excessively comical shrews in the business of shrewdom…Keep up the good work , I am sure your handlers are holding themselves in baited excitement…
Would the conservative Sin-ator from Ohio, please place both hands on the rostrum…SIN-ATOR please both hands on the rostrum ; sir….! ! ! ! !
But the rest of us are just amazed at how commonly stupid you are ; and so happy to be sooo stupid..Wow ! ! !
ps…I heard OJ is looking for pen pals, prison is such a lonely place and so is bigotry….....Maybe you can write him about your thoughts on racial harmony…....................lol lol lol
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 10, 2009 at 11:36 PM Looks like a nerve was struck! ...... lol lol lol
Go rest your fingers, Mr. Truther, ye of sound judgement and master of missing the point.
I’m sure Mumia is innocent as well, right?
Posted by Natalie on Nov 11, 2009 at 2:38 AM Natalie, you struck a nerve.
Blackhorse, I am having a wonderful time watching this thread & your responses. Your responses remind me of a disco maniac in 1979 who was not that good, but is still trying the exact same mannerisms, moves, & music in 1985. :) Your arguments are weak, so you fall back to the last resort of racism & personal attacks, thinking these are seen as witty - to be nice, they’re not.
Of course, there really isn’t a defense for despotism, tyrrany, & theft of rights that doesn’t sound horrific & inhuman.
Posted by Robin Ray on Nov 12, 2009 at 2:05 AM Robin it is interesting that you make those last points , despotism , tyranny and theft ( by the way it’s ” TYRANNY “not ” TYRRANY ” ).....
Anyway ; this is the way of the right -wing facists ; the all to common repugnantly zenophobic rhetoric…
Your hypocritical rantings are the delight of only those , such as yourself..
And Natalie ; it is equally interesting ; that you find individuals that are for some odd reason interested in the truth ; obsolete and objectionable ; (my observations of your rhetoric )............
Your shallow beliefs in the mainstream media propaganda have render you beyond dingy ..You have stated that you were correct in your perceptions about the ‘horse , but it is exceedingly clear to me that you are as stated by that same aforementioned ‘horse ; a zenophobically challenged nobody that get their kicks spreading thinly vailed racist obstinacies….
Of course you and your boot lickin’ lacky fiend Robin believe that you have scored against the Blackhorse, what else can you babble about..
Your lame attempts at producing rhetorically rightest humor lack witt , your observations mute and mundane , as you try in vain to be satirically funny…
You two mush-mouths have been wrong on every other subject under discussion and you are wrong again….....
Nothing new…................
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 12, 2009 at 10:38 PM I know you are but what am I?
Par for the horse—long on accusations, assertions and juvenile name calling, but short on evidence, facts and reasoning.
Nothing new ..............
That’s veiled, not “vailed”.
And I’m sad to break it to ya, but “fascism” is actually a man-in-the-mirror thing ........ for you:
People who think it takes a village to raise a child have been sucking on the same philosophical lemon as Benito Mussolini. For liberals, this is going to be like a Klansman finding African American roots in his family tree…....
.......Only the fact we have forgotten what fascism is—socialism set to patriotic music—allows today’s left to recycle its ideas, while attaching the stigma it earned in the first half of the 20th century to conservatives, or anybody else it hates.
I know you are ........... but what am I?
I’m not the one defending socialist-based statism ....... you are.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 13, 2009 at 3:50 PM First of all Natalie dear , if you don’t know who you are , why are you asking Blackhorse ? ? ?
Secondly ; it seems that whenever you have any rebuttal , all you do is reverse the arguement ; this is extremely unoriginal and quite boring Natalie ; you are boring Blackhorse..In the future ; all that I ask is a small amount of originality , please…
Now concerning fascism , although the ’ horse is guilty of the mispelling of the word ” repeatedly “, I am qiute sure of it’s meaning which is the ” corporate controll of gov’t entities ” , ya know like all those rich land owners in the Honduras controlling the gov’t , so that regular citizens have very little , if any say in what goes on…Or in amerika , when corporations hire someone to lobby for a particular set of laws, and pay a great deal of money to a particular politician, so that the corporation actually writes the legislation….This is what thinking people call ” legalized bribery ” or in more direct terms ” fascism “...
So Natalie , there is no way I could be a facist, cause in order to execute that particular procedure ’ one would have to first have the capital to buy off the gov’t officials..That means that Blackhorse would have to be a capitalist , which I am not…I may live in a so-called capitalist nation ; but in order to truely be a capitalist one would have to be RICH…
Are you rich Natalie ? ? ? Because if you are not , it becomes qiute moronic to argue for something that you are not..It’s like you are living vicariously ; thru someone or something else ; which of course could mean that you are not only socially unbalanced but emotionally touched to boot..
Your misunderstanding of these basic facts are so clouded by your ostentatiousness , that you are unable to see clearly that fascism has nothing to do with socialism , or capitalism for that matter… It is the misuse of the economic resourses that are produced by the tax base , which my dear is all of us…
So all you are doing is making a case against your own best interests ; unless of course you are actually involved in this activity , ya know , bribery….
Now Blackhorse is not interested in selling any of the above mentioned ideologies , this seems to be the melodramatics of you my dear…..My concerns are the misuse of said resourses against the better interests of the people or more commonly referred to as the citizenry….
Finally , this ‘horses assertions of your racist mentality are correct because ; racism is the economic disenfranchisement of an individual or group of individuals based on phenotype ; which is exactly the perspective that your pontifications are an affirmation thereof….So Blackhorse feels quite comfortable in these observations….
All hail Fuhrer Natalie
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 13, 2009 at 11:03 PM No, I was not trying to say that you personally are a fascist, although I can see how you might have thought so. Perhaps a pawn in the game of friendly fascism being sponsored by President Pedro, but not you, yourself.
The point is simply thus, blackhorse .......
Fascism, Socialism and Naziism are all fundamentally based in there being a strong central state in control of the people, which is of course 180 degrees opposed to the founding principles of America. These ideologies employ/employed different tools and methods to maintain control, but control is key. The individual is nothing.
Today, the Democratic party, especially it’s far left “progressive” fringe, is all about control. They wish to control the media, the health care industry, the banking and thereby real estate industry, the labor market and at least temporarily (we’ll see) the car industry. And to tie it up with a secure cable and lock, our very carbon usage.
My position, which is that of a garden variety libertarian-conservative, is about as far away as one can get from this kind of thinking on the ideological spectrum. My focus is liberty, and if you feel somehow oppressed or controlled by someone/something, then perhaps there’s some common ground. I don’t support many of the anti-liberty aspects of the Republican party, either, but I find that it’s still usually liberty’s best bet.
So when I see what’s going in Honduras, and I see the kinds of control-minded people like Castro, Chavez, Ortega and Obama supporting Zelaya, I instinctively (and I think properly) side with the folks that appear to be wary of this centrally-focused power-hungry mindset.
It’s really no more complicated than that. When one man or party hogs the power for him/itself that I (and the U.S. constitution) believe foremost belongs to the individual, liberty recedes and eventually dies.
Perhaps we have different ideas of liberty. But my main point is let’s not let ourselves, or Honduras, get into the position that there’s only one idea of liberty coming from the top down—precluding others’ ideas of liberty from ever being able to be heard, much less employed.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 14, 2009 at 1:59 AM Well finally Natalie my dear , you have explained your ideological position in terms that Blackhorse can know understand ; disagree with for sure , but now I can at least understand where you are coming from….
Now as to why you clump socialism in with fascism and nazism is a mystery to the Blackhorse ; one would guess it has something to do with your libertarian-conservative beliefs….Which I do not trust….
I will give you this bone ; the Democratic party is a piece of _hit…There history of racism , before the civil rights movement ( the so-called Dixie-crats and now these so-called Blue-dogs ) are the main problem…
Before the civil rights movement , most of the racist elements in the body politics were so-called Dixie-crats , meaning southern Democrats that were completely opposed to any reforms in the segregationist laws of this nation…
After former pres.Johnson got involved with the civil rights movement and started signing all kinds of legislations in a failed attempt the level the playing field ; southern Dixie-crats became outraged at Johnson and left the party for the Republicans…
Understand , that before the Dixie-crats invaded the republican party ; many working class and professional black folks belonged to the republican party…Martin Luther King was a republican before this transformation…So now we have a Republican party that is way to far to the right ; in a very real racist and fascist agenda…
Plus we have the Democrats; who are basically the same party as before the civil rights movement; but with a ” happy face “; that misleadingly suggests that they are of a more anti-racist agenda then in the past..But all one has to do is look at the record of that fake ass Clinton , and one can clearly see that the Democratic party is full of it….
Now again I have to disagree ; because the only part of the Dem party that I can see any real movement is with the far left or what people commonly referr to as the progressive element…I have no idea as to why you believe these individuals are involved in all of the fascist skull-duggery going on ; but again Blackhorse is sure it has to do with your libertarian beliefs…
I will not disagree that the Dems have a big fascist problem ; but so do the Reps. Additionally Natalie ; your assertions that Amerika was founded on the principles of liberty in opposition to the aforementioned isms is not true ; least you forget SLAVERY ; the 6000 pound gorilla in the room that nobody whats to deal with…
Now Blackhorse understands that omission , it is commonly made by white folks regardless of their political ideology , but one has to confront this problem before amerika can truthfully move forward…
Now Castro or Chavez or Zelaya or Obama for that matter ; they are just the messengers for the changes that have to take place ...
Natalie don’t kill or hate the messenger ; he may have something for you also , in his sachel…Ya know , maybe a little more liberty for Natalie and her friends….That would be good for you , yes ? ? ?
But you have to be more open to new ways at looking at old problems….Now see Natalie , Blackhorse is not hard to talk to , but just like you there are certain perspectives that I will not tolerate , especially if that perspective is represented as the so-called status quo….
Bye now….....
Posted by blackhorse on Nov 16, 2009 at 11:17 PM It’s good that you blackhorse, me and more and more people are recognizing that both parties, and the government in general, are/is largely composed of finger-in-the-wind charlatans.
Even back in the 60s it wasn’t they who were responsible for civil rights legislation, it was the people. The politicians were merely riding the wave:
“In fact, the civil rights movement was not about politics. Nor was it about which politicians did what and which political party should take the most credit. When it came to civil rights, America’s politicians merely saw the handwriting on the wall and wrote the legislation to make into federal law the historical changes that had already taken place. There was nothing else they could do.
The movement of blacks to the North, as well as their contributions as fighting men in the world wars, plus the hard work of millions of blacks and their families and churches, along with the efforts of many private groups and individuals made the civil rights movement succeed.”
Except of course for the stubborn southern Democrats/Dixiecrats. But it’s a myth that all these guys suddenly became Republicans. Except for one man, Strom Thurmond, there were no conversions of any of these segregationist Senators. They remained Democrats until they retired or died, and most Dixiecrats went right back to being Democrats:
“Kerry also maintained that all the Dixiecrats became Republicans shortly after passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, another big lie. Richard Russell, Mendell Rivers, Clinton’s mentor William Fulbright, Robert Byrd, Fritz Hollings and Al Gore Sr. remained Democrats till their dying day.
Most of the Dixiecrats did not become Republicans. They created the Dixiecrats and then, when the civil rights movement succeeded, they returned to the Democratic fold. It was not till much later, with a new, younger breed of Southerner and the thousands of Northerners moving into the South, that Republicans began to make gains.”
The conversion of the South to Republican happened much later, and was based not on race, but on issues of national security, crime and traditional values. After all, the Democrats were becoming the party of flower children, pacifism, drugs and criminal coddling.
You fail to grasp that contrary to the constitution being some kind of black freedom denying document, it was actually a death warrant to slavery:
“Nevertheless, Jefferson’s central point-that all men are created equal-remained as an obvious rebuke to the institution. From very early in the movement for independence, it was understood that calls for colonial freedom from British tyranny had clear implications for domestic slavery. “The colonists are by the law of nature free born, as indeed all men are, white and black,” James Otis wrote in 1761. “Does it follow that it is the right to enslave a man because he is black?” In the wake of independence, state after state passed legislation restricting or banning the institution.”
“Now Castro or Chavez or Zelaya or Obama for that matter ; they are just the messengers for the changes that have to take place ...”
Those are some messengers. A murderous dictator, an opposition media squelching power-mad el presidente for life, and a couple wanna-bees.
These are not the messengers you should look up to, nor is their message any friend of freedom. They only seek to take away freedom under the guise of helping the “little guy”. But when the little guy finds himself wanting to become something more than just a little guy, or express an idea that might threaten the “statist-quo” he’ll find his freedom to do so just doesn’t exist anymore. Are those really the “changes” you think “have to take place”?
I think it would be much better for freedom in the long run if they didn’t. But then again, we may have different ideas of what constitutes freedom.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 20, 2009 at 10:45 AM Well, well. As it turns out, and like I and others here suspected all along, Zelaya was not the man of the people he made himself out to be. He was just another leftist thug crybaby who tried unsuccessfully to keep people from voting, even though he wasn’t even on the ballot:
“Others said Zelaya supporters tried to prevent them from voting. Enrique Zelaya, a 54-year-old doctor who works for the United Nations, said he was among people in a group of 25 cars Sunday that was stopped at the border between El Salvador and Honduras by men who said they were trying to enforce Mr. Zelaya’s boycott of the election. After five hours, the cars were allowed to pass, he said.”
It was also reported that Zelaya supporters set off small bombs around the country in the weeks before the election to try and intimidate people from going to the polls via terror. It didn’t work. The bombers no doubt just looking out for “the little guy”.
Zelaya’s party was rejected by a pretty healthy majority of Honduran voters. A “conservative rancher” won by by 56 to 38 percent. Many observers are reporting that this election was a victory for Honduran democracy, which Zelaya was attempting to subvert.
Another thing I read somewhere: Zelaya couldn’t find a single printer in the entire country to print up his illegal ballots. So that’s why he had to go to Venezuela. Perhaps he should go back there and apply to be Hugo’s shoe shine boy.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 30, 2009 at 8:59 AM Natalie….Two quick points , one , the election was heavily boycotted by the poor citizens of Honduras; two, the citizens in general in the Honduras do not feel that the elections are valid based off of the fact that the gov’t is considered ” de-facto “...
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 1, 2009 at 2:30 PM I’m sure that misinformed propagandized poor citizens are under the impression that their socialist hero was improperly removed. Such is not the case in reality, however.
So it’s probably good that they didn’t vote, anyway. The working class people, who pull the load and pay the taxes, and are properly informed, voted for the “conservative rancher”.
If you’ve pissed of Chavez, Castro, Ortega and Obama, you can rest assured you’ve voted the right way.
Posted by Natalie on Dec 2, 2009 at 2:02 AM Natalie…..The only folks that are misinformed propagandized citizens are amerikans such as yourself….
Most so-called latin-amerikan countries have populations that may not have much materially , but one thing is clear , and that is that these folks are extremely well informed and participatorial when it comes to politics and their human rights…
See your problem is that you keep confusing the lazy political behavior of amerikans , with the active involvment of citizens from other nations….
Why folks such as yourself find humor in the misfortune of others is always a wonderment to the Blackhorse ? ? ?
One would guess that you Natalie , discovering that a terrible accident had happened ; Natalie would grabb her pom poms , and go cheer for the accident…Strange indeed…
Your so-called working class people only amount to about 30% of the voting population….This doesn’t speak well for your supposed conservative ruling class…
Many voters feared for their lives and did not dare to vote…
Does this sound like a strong democracy ? ? ? And we all know how concerned you are about liberty and democracy ; true ???
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 2, 2009 at 10:09 PM Or could it have something to do with the fact that folks were generally disenchanted with the political system, and the liberal party in particular, because Zelaya was the one who initiated the dust-up?
Or perhaps because of the fact that Zelaya urged a boycott of the election?
No, it had to be because nasty right-wingers were going to kill them if they voted.
Sounds to me like it was the leftists who engaged in intimidation, bombs, threats of boycotts, etc.
Whatever. Let’s leave it up to the Honduran people to decide next election if they want to go left or right. But that requires that they actually HAVE a choice, something Zelaya was attempting to preempt, and something even those in his own party wouldn’t go along with.
At least I doubt if anyone will be trying that again anytime soon.
Posted by Natalie on Dec 3, 2009 at 2:22 AM Natalie , Nastalie , Natalie , your obstinate obstruction of facts is truely a delight to the Bush-aryanist and other fascist elements world wide… You are wasting your time and talents with these meddlesome topics ; they would be of much greater use at say FOXNEWS or some other right-wing propaganda complex….
How or why you have chosen to be a spokeswoman for this ; “pedagogy of the peculiar ” is obviously the outgrowth of a spontaneous and impulsive need to show your drone-like effusionary devotion to ideologies so egregiously obscene that when juxtaposed with say the ideologies of the pedophile or more collectively pedophilia ; one would be in conflict as to which of these perverted mindsets is more hideous…
How you will extricate yourself from the ” dribble of the criminally insane ” only your soul can tell you this ? ? ?
But until that day arrives Blackhorse would again suggest that possiblly
Natalie ; you might check out the Al Jazeera or DemocracyNow websites….Thats Al Jazeera.net or DemocracyNow.org ; click onto the amerikas link or brouse for any info on the Honduras ; or for that matter any other link of your so-called ” interests “...
Now Blackhorse is aware that these websites are not your usual cup of tea , but if one is to grow in awareness and knowledge, one must step outside of ones comfort zone and look at any particular issue at hand from a differing didactical perspective…
Natalie it is the Blackhorses prognostication that you are indeed suffering from the sheltered life of excessive amerikanizationalism , the only possible cure is to become more acutely informed ; this will allow you to divorce yourself from the dreary defalcations that have so blinded you and caused your current state of geo-political degeneracy….........
Good day ol’ girl….........
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 4, 2009 at 11:03 PM No thanks, BH. You can keep your leftist, terrorist-sympathizing propaganda for yourself.
My interest is liberty. Individual liberty.—- not the loss of it at the hands of a few thugs sporting promises of continual crumbs and comforting us-against-them rhetoric.
Al Jazeera seeks to spread the bigotry of Islam to the west. DemocracyNow seeks to incorporate the corrupt socialist ideas of dictators and tyrants into the fabric of America.
You call it Amerika with a K like it’s a bad thing. But then you go and advocate FOR the K becoming a reality. Call me when you finally make sense.
Posted by Natalie on Dec 5, 2009 at 4:00 AM See Natalie ; that’s the problem with your so-called ideology…..There is not such thing as ” individual liberty “..
Either we all have liberty or none of us have liberty…If the people in Honduras do not have their full flow of liberty , you are foolish to believe that you have your liberty..One cannot be mutually exclusive from the other…That’s like trying to split air , you can’t; we all breath the same air…If you fart in LA , UNFORTUNATELY ;we smell it in DC…..
That’s what so comical about you and yours Natalie ; it’s like you live in some kind of a ” dream world ” , where only you and your little narrow-minded rightist libertarianist friends ; only see what is before you , never to be enlightened or inspired by anything or anybody other than your own beliefs, livin’ life with blinders on….
Truely comical….lol lol lol
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 7, 2009 at 10:05 PM Yeah, well, right back atcha. My opinion is that “progressive” socialists like yourself live in a “dream world” where everyone is provided for and there’s some kind of magical pot-o-gold at the end of some rainbow that’s going to pay for it. The people pulling the wagon are going to be perfectly happy to have more and more and more of their earnings confiscated, and will never stop producing and innovating. Like, say, inventing and bringing to market things like a washing machine. Figuring out ways to be more efficient in production so as the poorest among us generally not only have washing machines, but 2 or 3 television sets.
Basically, all I’ve ever said here is that people are ill-advised to let their countries get into the position where they can’t get rid of their leaders via their votes. Most people wouldn’t’ find that controversial in the least, much less wrong.
You don’t seem to have a problem with it however. You run to the defense of those who would entertain such grandiose notions, in the misguided belief that these thugs are going to be somehow good for “the little guy” in the long run. Obama’s bedding down with corporate giants via banking, health care and carbon trading schemes should be a clue to you how much these folks really care about “the little guy”. His non-stop wrenches thrown into our free market small business-based economy, where most of the jobs reside, are not designed to help “the little guy” ever find a frickin’ job.
You seem blind to the fact that once someone secures the technical right to run as many times as they like, after having used their power to shut down opposition voices and bribe the masses with measly handouts, they have effectively taken over as dictator. Even IF there is an election every few years.
That’s what I’m talking about when I say liberty and freedom. The liberty to freely and fearlessly speak out against my government. Freedom from the tyranny of a demagogue who’s bribed his way onto my ballot for my entire life.
These basic liberties and freedoms we so far enjoy in America you seem to want to deny to the people of Honduras. Zelaya’s friend and fellow traveler Hugo Chavez has already denied them to the people of Venezuela, whether many of them realize it yet or not.
Again ...... if you’ve pissed off Chavez, Castro, Ortega, Obama and probably every other dictator around the world——you can rest assured you’ve voted the right way. Congratulations to the people of Honduras for voting the right way. Don’t ever sacrifice your most basic of human rights—- the ability to get rid of your leaders, be they left OR right.
Posted by Natalie on Dec 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM “How or why you have chosen to be a spokeswoman for this ; “pedagogy of the peculiar ” is obviously the outgrowth of a spontaneous and impulsive need to show your drone-like effusionary devotion to ideologies so egregiously obscene that when juxtaposed with say the ideologies of the pedophile or more collectively pedophilia ; one would be in conflict as to which of these perverted mindsets is more hideous…”
Somebody’s been using their thesaurus, haven’t they blackhorse? Now if only you’d step away from the socialist propaganda pages and take a step into reality, you’d make some progress toward being a productive member of society instead of a leach on people who are actually willing to work to get ahead.Maybe I’ve missed it, but can somebody on this thread please explain to me, according to the laws of Honduras, what was done that was illegal in removing Zelaya? If in fact, Zelaya was removed from power using constitutional methods, then I would suggest the discussion is over, yes?
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 8, 2009 at 3:22 AM Natalie…You have been ” over ” for a long , long time….........
Blackhorse needs no thesauras ; I talk like that all the time…........
Besides thats what leaches do…....lol lol lol
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 8, 2009 at 2:32 PM ...and the part where you or someone that supports your position show a legal basis for challenging the removal of Zelaya?
From everything I’ve read, the removal of the President of Honduras was conducted completely with the constitutionally mandated means of Honduras. No one has ever been able to dispute that with a sensible legal argument. I’m waiting for someone to cite Honduran law to prove me wrong.
Incidentally I agree with Natalie. The “rich” can’t pull the cart forever. Eventually one of two things are going to happen. The “rich” will run out of money or the “rich” will lose the will to innovate and/or make money because they won’t get to keep any of it. There’s no point in working harder than everyone else if you get exactly the same rewards.
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 8, 2009 at 4:15 PM So basically Rick ; you need the advice of a legal professional ; specializing in Honduran law ; to tell you what is moral or immoral , legal or illegal….
Zelaya was remove from office in his pajamas….Blackhorse is sure that ; whatever his so-called offenses may have been that to remove a sitting , legally elected president from office in the middle of the night , while he is still in his sleeping apparel ; is not in accordance with the legal language of the constitution of the Honduras or any other sovereign nation…
It don’t take rocket science to understand basic civility….
But then again Mr. Maifeld , when one is of the opinion that you have presented ; that your mainstream status qou news outlets , have the story correct , that the rich cannot ; as you have stated ” pull the cart forever ” or , this one is even more comical ” The rich will run out of money or the rich will lose the will to innovate and/or make money….etc..”
Please sir; are you really that naive or more correctly ignorant…
How sir ; can the so-called rich; run out of money , when they own the federal reserve , all that has to be done is to print more money ; fool ? ? ?
Inflation will go up; but they ; the afforementioned rich are not concerned about that…
Additionally ; one would douft if the so-called rich will ever tire of exploiting others so that they will continue to recieve an unequally large share of the wealth and/or resourse of this planet….
But such is the state of affairs for a soul such as yourself , your capacity for self thought usurped by the succubusly dogmatic miseducation of a ostentatiously crippled amerikanizationalist state run , privately owned , multi-media propaganda machine….
ps…for your much needed edification ; a succubus in folklore is a female demon , that has sexual intercourse with ” SLEEPING MEN “
<sub-underneath + cubare or cubus- to lie >...
In other words Mr. Maifeld ; wake the fuck up and stop telling lies….
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 9, 2009 at 10:52 PM Let us ask Blackhorse, since he/she likes to refer to themselve’s in the third person as only a truly egomaniacal person would this small question. How do you seperate the moral from the legal, and who gets to make that decision? Is it legal for the government to confiscate your property for the greater good? Is it legal for them to do so?
The basic premise of your argument is flawed and I’ll tell you why. Zelaya was no longer the legally elected sitting president, because his powers had been stripped from him, following the legal constitution of Honduras. As president, he committed acts that directly contravened the basic law of the country. The constitution of Honduras specifically listed the legal remedy for the actions taken by Mr. Zelaya. Just like a person who holds up a liquor store, there are consequences for your actions. There is no moral compass on this issue. You break the law, you suffer the consequences.
As for sources of news, please my dimwitted friend, tell me what news source you find credible? Personally, I read all the information available on a subject from any news source I find, and then make an informed opinion based on the total body of knowledge. Unless you were physically present and witnessed every action involved in this case, you can never be 100% certain you know the truth. To believe anything else is truly the definition of an ignorant person.
Further, I would suggest that it might be time for a refresher course in economics for you comrade Blackhorse. While it is true that the Federal Reserve can, and I believe currently is, printing money that will ultimately lead to higher inflation, the true fact is that as the money supply increases the value of existing money in circulation decreases. Therefore, if I am a rich person who has $100 million dollars I do not stand to benefit by the buying power of my money declining with inflation. If today I can buy $100 million in goods and services, yet in 2 years my $100 million only buys what $90 million did 2 years ago, then I have lost net money.
That however wasn’t my point. My point is that if the aforementioned individual has $100 million, works 60 hours a week, earns $1 million per year, and employs 100 people who combined make $8 million per year but is now facing a 90% tax on his earnings, and the government taking 65% of what he has saved upon his death. Why would he not move his company somewhere that he wouldn’t be taxed as much or shut down his company altogether costing the 100 employees their jobs, and live off his fortune? Why should he continue to work if he only gets to keep a dime for every dollar he makes. Why not work less hard, make less money but get to keep most of it, and not have the frustration of running a company and employing all those people?
If enough “rich” people decide to take that course, there won’t be enough money left to support the poor AND there will be a lot more poor because there will be no one running businesses that create jobs.
Have you ever heard the phrase, “you can’t get blood from a turnip.” You can only tax 100% of a person’s net worth. After that, there’s nothing left to tax. If social programs and government spending ever reach the point that would require 100.000000000000001% of wealth to continue, then the whole house of cards comes down.
Btw, I’m quite capable of understanding English without a high-school educated thesaurus user explaining definitions to me. And for your information succubus can not be turned into an adverb in standard English usage. You might want to pull a dictionary out too.
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 10, 2009 at 12:45 AM Ricky….Excuses ,excuses ,excuses, truely sir do really expect the Blackhores to go for your liar scenario….
Your as bad as Nata-lie ; at least a little creativity ;sir…
Maybe an original thought ? ? ? something that the Blackhorse has not read before….
It’s interesting that ; reading your comments is like a snapshot of ; say some mainstream propaganga news organization….
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 10, 2009 at 2:08 PM And yet, you can’t or won’t dispute any of my arguments.
Point by point, dispel my logic if you can.
Just like a typical propagandist like your good buddy Hugo Chavez, you won’t deal in facts, only smoke and mirrors.
I dare you to dispel my assertions, because I know you can’t. They are all based in logic, reason, and the law. Things you know nothing aboutl
I’ll make it easy for the blackhorse. What is the LEGAL basis for Zelaya to be in power? What sources of information do you use that you claim are unbiased and non-propagandized? (Please cite specific sources) Please back up your theory that the U.S. Federal Reserve is run by the “rich” who are using it to print more money for their financial gain, oh and a twist to this one, please use FACTS to support your argument.
Finally, please demonstrate how a person can give more than 100% of their net worth in support of your cause.
Notice, most of the more import words are capitalized? This is so they stand out as your reading, because it’s clear you have small lapses of memory (and judgement).
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 10, 2009 at 3:18 PM Damn little Ricky ; you are a pesky little bastard aren’t you….First off lets get this straight from the jump….Blackhorse is not about to waste my time or yours , for that matter ; disspelling your myopic world perspective ; ” point for point ; as you have requested….If you sir , wish to remain among the egregiously misinformed , that is your god givin right ; there is nothing I could or would say or do to change your beliefs…
Now , I am not a lawyer nor am I versed on the constitution of the Honduras , but having stated that fact ; Blackhorse doesn,t have to have those credentials to know quite plainly sir , that your beliefs are in fact unsuitable for human consumption…Unless ; in your case sir ; you enjoy eating the incessantly ismed slop of others….Why sir, as you have stated , would you ; a regular working individual , argue for the rights and privleges of a class of individuals that is not your own…These individuals { the so-called rich or wealthy class} have no concern for your right or mine for that matter…This is why these situations ; such as the Honduras exist…............
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM .....to this Blackhorse , it appears that the basis of your argument is one of having the proclivity of an intellectually insipid ass-wipe….
Additionally , if at this late date in the his-story of amerika ; you sir ; are not aware of the geo-economic manipulations of the Fed , then again it has been the experience of this individual that to take the time and energy to explain ; would in fact be a waste…Just like the so-called education (indoctrination )that you believe you have recieved ; you have wasted your time and no douft your parents money ; because truthfully ; you don’t have the sense god gave you ; much less a convincing argument to the contrary….
Finally ; it is clear why you are sooo concerned that the so-called wealthy remain happy , based on the his-tory of this nation your ethnic class { white folks } have received preferential treatment in juxtaposition to all other groups or classification of individuals…
But as of late your condition is becoming extremely prejudicial ; economically , socially and by the way sir, intellectually too…So now ; you are in the same boat as the rest of us ; damn , right back where your ancestors were decades ago…
And ; true to your pedagogically racist , fascist xenophobic heritage ; you begin to lash out at any and everything that minutely looks or smells of free thought or freedom or radical progressiveness ; especially for those who had to pay the price for the unholy excesses of your wealthy overlords….
Well sir the masquerade is over ; and pity little sophist such as you are , will have to find another raison d’etre for existence…See little Ricky this is why your affirmations are mute to the Blackhorse ; because the larger issues which are human in nature ; as opposed to your myopic issues with there dogmatic concerns with capital and privilege and individual so-called rights are excessively pity and arbitrary…
But ; really Blackhorse truthfully understands , after all , you guys are only 9% of the world population…That kind of hegemony can’t last forever , dude….
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 10, 2009 at 11:47 PM Responding to your own comments, that kind of reeks of schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder wouldn’t you say? I kind of assumed that you needed therapy but you didn’t need to confirm it for everyone did you? Nor did you.
(I’m speaking to your alter ego now)The interesting thing about both of your posts is that there is nary a legal argument to the entire topic this thread is built around. Sure there are lots of petty insults, and even a few made up words (ismed???) but nothing that would even be remotely considered a coherent argument for why Zelaya should still be in power.
No explanation as to how the Fed printing money benefits anyone, except the government who essentially make money to use to pay off their debt to the detriment of the rest of us. Nor can you name any credible sources of information to supplant the information I get from “some mainstream propaganga news organization…. “
Your posts and rants are filled with cliches and action words of the radical left, with not a single original thought except some overly thesaurus laden insults. The one and only exception that I’ll give you is when you said my argument had the, “proclivity of an intellectually insipid ass-wipe….” That was actually kind of funny.
I suspect the reason why you won’t give a rational argument is because you can’t. The mentally challenged often cover up their lack of intelligent discourse by avoiding the issue, hurling insults, or pretending to be on such a high intellectual plane that it would be useless to explain to mere mortals.
The truth is that you are capable of spouting propaganda that you’ve heard elsewhere from people that are clearly smarter than you, but unable to connect the synapsis sufficiently to generate one original argument.
Are you capable of discussing something in a rational manner or is the preceding verbal vomit all you’re capable of?
Time will tell.
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 11, 2009 at 3:19 AM First off little Ricky , the double post happens all the time ;computer typo error; not much we can do about that…Weak attempt at humor on your part….
Now concerning my posts ; as usual you guys on the neo-rightwing side have no original perspectives to share ; so you copy my style…
Blackhorse , will take it as a compliment , although your attempts are weak , as always….
I have presented my views on this subject matter ; the fact that you either do not understand or cannot understand is not my problem ; it is yours…
And as usual for folks of your limited perspective , that is par for the course….
So basically ; get over yourself , and move on ; that is what you stated on Dec8 at 3:22…
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 11, 2009 at 4:59 PM First off for you little Blacky, the double post may happen a lot, but it’s usually and identical post, and usually not posted an hour and eleven minutes apart. So nice try at deflection, but both of you still need to get back on the meds.
Now, I’m speaking to both of your personality’s, so both of you pay attention!!!! Yes, you’ve expressed your views on the subject, and as I an no doubt others have expressed ad nauseum on this thread, your views are completely based in fantasy and a twisted, bankrupt social ideology that has been proven to be a failure everywhere it’s ever been tried.
You have no basis for your argument on any legal grounds and can’t logically explain any of your economic theories beyond your own myopic view of the situation. Your answer to any query is that your opponent is obviously too ignorant to understand and then follow that up with a series of lame insults. You sir are the definition of the phrase “having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent”
You are welcome to continue to spew catch-phrases from the socialist playbook all you want, that unfortunately for your kind, doesn’t change fact or reality.
Oh, and since another play out of the socialist playbook is to misquote and take people out of context to justify your non-sensical arguments, this is what I actually said on Dec8 at 3:22 dimwit, “Maybe I’ve missed it, but can somebody on this thread please explain to me, according to the laws of Honduras, what was done that was illegal in removing Zelaya? If in fact, Zelaya was removed from power using constitutional methods, then I would suggest the discussion is over, yes? “
Assuming you agree with that statement, which according to your last post you seem to, I would suggest that your are indeed admitting that this discussion is over since you can’t produce any evidence to show he was not removed by legal means. Thanks for playing!!
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 11, 2009 at 5:42 PM Well little one ; seems that the Blackhorse has taught you well….eh ? ? ?
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 11, 2009 at 6:33 PM But perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars. One of these wars is winding down. The other is a conflict that America did not seek; one in which we are joined by 42 other countries - including Norway - in an effort to defend ourselves and all nations from further attacks......
.......The Cold War ended with jubilant crowds dismantling a wall. Commerce has stitched much of the world together. Billions have been lifted from poverty. The ideals of liberty and self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced. We are the heirs of the fortitude and foresight of generations past, and it is a legacy for which my own country is rightfully proud…....
....... I believe that peace is unstable where citizens are denied the right to speak freely or worship as they please; choose their own leaders or assemble without fear. Pent-up grievances fester, and the suppression of tribal and religious identity can lead to violence.
We also know that the opposite is true. Only when Europe became free did it finally find peace. America has never fought a war against a democracy, and our closest friends are governments that protect the rights of their citizens. No matter how callously defined, neither America’s interests - nor the world’s - are served by the denial of human aspirations…...
........Whatever mistakes we have made, the plain fact is this: the United States of America has helped underwrite global security for more than six decades with the blood of our citizens and the strength of our arms. The service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform has promoted peace and prosperity from Germany to Korea, and enabled democracy to take hold in places like the Balkans. We have borne this burden not because we seek to impose our will. We have done so out of enlightened self-interest - because we seek a better future for our children and grandchildren, and we believe that their lives will be better if other peoples’ children and grandchildren can live in freedom and prosperity.—Barack Obama, Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech, Norway
Blackhorse with a small b, (apparently meant to demonstrate humbleness) your man appears to be in need of an intervention. He’s gone all “Amerika” on us. You need to appeal to him promptly, before he starts acting out this deranged freedom-centric mentality. He’s truly gone off the rails, and appears to be channelling both Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. He even seems to have forgotten that 9/11 was an inside job.
Quickly now!In all seriousness, this is the kind of talk we’ve been waiting for from our President, and his words are welcome and much appreciated. It’s a start, but how to square them with his previous obtuse speeches, and non-actions and nose thumbing when people in places like Iran and Honduras were crying out for support of the freedom from tyranny he so eloquently spoke of in Norway?
Posted by Natalie on Dec 11, 2009 at 6:57 PM To blackhorse…????????????????????? What??? Please, please, please take your medication.
To Natalie, Amen!
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 11, 2009 at 7:37 PM Oooh little Ricky and Nata-lie ; two of a kind….Yes ; ” in these times ” fiendish trollers are together again….A phenomenal dou of placebo minded wannabe obfuscationist , with a collectively held irrational world perspectives….
Whether the issue of the day is the Honduras , or back here in the good ol’ United Snakes of Amerika ; little Ricky and Nata-lie can always be depended on by the lunatics on the neo-conservative so-called libertarian right-wigged-out party ; to provide the abundance of irrelavant scripted propagandistic bullshitt misinformation needed to keep the terminally misguided Amerikanizationalist ; asleep at the wheel…A job well done indeed , NOT ! ! !
My gumpy little one ; you have been so naive on so many points of fact , how can one man such as myself ; with the limited time that a 24 hour day allows ; confront , just confront ; much less straighten out your petty little web of lies…
The Blackhorse will throw you this bone ; but with the daftness that you and Nata-lie have display , one seriously is in douft of your collective ability to precieve the point….
Socialism is the fuel that feeds your perspective ,ie the so-called neo-conservative movement ; but both of you clowns have rejected this fact , ad infinitum..
Reaction-aryanists that you are ; this basic geo-political economic reality is continually overlooked by your ostentatiously crippling incompetence…
Most , if not all of the money that large multi-national corporations get is in the form or extremely low interest gov’t loans and in many cases ; these so-called loans are nothing but glorified grants….
Billoins , trillons of US tax dollars , your money ; goes to these corporations….That my fiendishly befuddled twosome , is SOCIALISM ,plain and as straight forward as anybody with half the sense God gave them can see and understand…
Secondly , all one has to do to confirm this fact is to get up early in the morning , turn on the idiot box, and more likely than not you will see a info-mercial about grants and low interest loans from the US GOV’T…Now I am sure at least one of you lieing bastards have seen these info-mercial , with the married couple , both so-called real estate moguls , both so-called conservative Republicans…
Finally , have you ever heard the quote ; ” Socialism for the rich , capitalism for the poor…..” ; If socialism is good for the rich ; the same rich folks that you so admire , little ricky ? ? ? Why not for the common woman or man ? ? ? Ehhh little ones ???
Maybe one day little ricky ; you and nata-lie can be the intellectual ass-wipes for all of Amerika , not just your petty little neo-rghtist party…
Big business eehh ???
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 11, 2009 at 11:46 PM I honestly don’t even know where to begin….
Firstly, I’ll point out that you still have no argument as to why Zelaya should still be in power. You know, the underlying reason this entire article and thread are around. I know you’d like to deflect and change the conversation when you clearly have nothing intelligent to add on this subject, but unfortunately that won’t happen. Everytime you post your dribble, I’ll respond by reinforcing that you have no justifiable argument. None, zilch, nada….
Still no explanation for the Fed either I see. I guess the website/newspaper/book that you’re getting all of your ideas from (since clearly you’re incapable of stringing two coherent thoughts together) must have left out the details and just given you you’re instructions to pull the subversive line. Tell me black, how does it feel to be a stooge?
Now on to your latest attempt at deflection. If you claim that all privately held corporations are really benefactors of government socialist largesse…I challenge you….to PROVE IT!!!!! Cite something other than, “I know you’ve seen an infomercial”. If that’s all it takes to steer the thoughts of a mindless lemming like you, then I’ll have to call my local radio and television stations to run my ad proclaiming that I’m Emperor of the World. You’ll believe it if you see right? That’s proof right? Oh, I forgot, you have these mysterious “sources” that give you all the real information, while the rest of us believe the propaganda. (you might want to watch for the black helicopters, too)
To sum up, still no valid legal argument as to why Zelaya should be in power while at the same time faced with a valid Honduran Constitution that says he should not. We can continue with your obsessive ranting if you choose, but I think we all know this discussion is over.
Posted by Rick Maifeld on Dec 15, 2009 at 4:10 AM Damn little ricky , if being an ostentatiously misinformed idiot was a capital offense , you would have been strung up and hanged as soon as your little pee-brain hit the street…But none the less you have survived , to the detriment of all humanity…..
Know I am sure you are aware of the few facts that the ‘Horse is about to present , and that only one as arrogant and self ass-suredly stupid as yourself would post those questions , so that I can answer them correctly , only to have you deny the facts again , ad infinitum….
First , your silly little claim that Zelaya deserved to be removed from office is just that…Again ,the man only asked that a vote be held , by the people of Honduras , asking for an amendement to the constitution , making stated document more favorable to the common people of Honduras , in juxtaposition to the afforemention ruling clas ie rich folks/ landowners…
This was the action that so frightened the said ruling class that they , inappropiately used acticle 239 of the constitution to remove Zelaya from office…
Now you know very well that article 239 of the Honduran constitution has to do with the restraint of an individual citizen to hold the office of the president no more than one term….There is nothing in that article 239 that states anything to the contrary concerning a vote to enhance the rights of the citizens of the afforemention Honduras or that the sitting president cannot call for said addendum to be introduced….
So my question to you little one is ; where’s the crime ? ? ?
Zelaya was only doing what elected officials of any gov’t are suppose to do , which is to lookout for the best interests of the people , especially the poor….
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 15, 2009 at 10:53 PM Additionally article 3 of the constitution states as such :
Nobody should obedience to a USURPER gov’t NOT TO THOSE WHO ASSUME FUNCTION OR PUBLIC JOBS BY THE FORCE of ARMS of using MEDIA or procedures that VIOLATE or unaware that this constitution and the laws..The acts verified by such authorities are ZERO…People have the right to appeal to the INSURRECTION in DEFENSE of the consttutional order…..
Now Blackhorse is sure that little ricky will not agree with these facts as stated ; but this is the info requested….true.
Secondly , the Fed is owned by a number of banking concerns , the main one are asd stated Rothschild Bank : London ; Warburg Bank of Hamburg / Berlin ; Lehman Bros.New York ; Lazard Brothers of Paris; Kuhn Loeb Bank NY ; Israel Moses Sief Banks of Italy ; Goldman SAchs NY , Warburg/ Amsterdam and Chase Manhattan NY….
Now a little history for the little minds , in 1913 a sin-ator Nelson Aldrich a relative of the Rockefellers introduced a bill that was passed and signed by Pres. Woodrow Wilson…The afforementioned Federal Reserve Act of 1913….
Additionally ; one can use youtube and listen to Greenspan ( a libertarianist Republican ) state the fact that the Federal Reserve is in fact an independent body and that the US Gov’t has no control or power to engage the Fed to the contrary…
But that would make too much sense for little ricky to bring his lazy ass and actually do some investigative research ; wouldn’t it…
This is too easy , one would hope that the next time you put your proverbial foot in your mouth ; you come up with more astute reasons as to why….
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 15, 2009 at 11:27 PM Now your last little bone was the point about corporations and gov’t subsidized loans , boy you really don’t know this do you ; hey it’s really none of the Blackhorses business , but where do you live , next door to Sarah Palin , hell as dumb as that chick is ; I’m sure she knows about subsidized gov’t loans….
The Blackhorse can’t prove anything , if one is not ready to understand , but the fact that the Gov’t basically gives money to large corporations is nothing new , what was this whole bailout of the banks about…...I guess you need to be spoon fed , like a three year old…...........
I was able to find all kinds of info on gov’t grants and subsidized loans as far as websites are concerned , so Blackhorse , in the spirit of largess is going to throw you another bone….Here fido ; catch , catch….Maybe these two 800 numbers will help…888-384-9608 or 800-306-0873…
Posted by blackhorse on Dec 15, 2009 at 11:39 PM Little ricky , oh little ricky ; where the heck are you…..
Strange , Blackhorse has responded to your request , concerning the Honduran constitution…....
No responds ? ? ?
Nata-lie , yu who , hello ! ! ! Nothing for 8 days ? ? ? ......
Oh well , so very strange , but indeed telling ; no ? ? ?
I will be on vacation ’ til Jan 4 2010 , so have a safe and enlightened holiday season and new year…...........
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