In These Times

Hi, Rabbit! Dropped by to see how you were doing. Still slogging it out with The Bat I see. Has it been asked what evidence there is that the planes that slammed into the towers were indeed Boeing passenger planes? If so, they were the most synchronistic and dramatic duds in the history of aviation engineering. If planes were really that volatile, then whoo doggy---they would not be safer than driving, even if cars really did explode on impact in real life as often as the ones in movies do. Next move, will probably be to discredit the bland, common sensical …

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Clearly the janitor did it. Hi, Mymarkx. Hi, Doug. You're doing a great job of slogging it out with a sleep aid Rabbit---this has got to be a record of some sort. Now----Bush administration. Laws of physics. Bush administrations. Laws of physics. Bush Administration---- LAWS OF PHYSICS. I know the official story isn't true the way I know that I can't jump off a ninety story building, burst into flames, then drop directly down to the ground in a neat little pile of ashes. It's hard to express verbally to the LOP deniers, because we started to experiment with it in …

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that's kitchen COUNTER

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A bit off topic, doug, but about those RFID tags that some people have proudly had implanted in their pod---er bod---and that are EVERYWHERE---they are a nuisance. Have you noticed how often sales people in stores wave it off when the alarm goes off at the exit door? I bought a coat last winter, and as I was going through the door, the alarms went off. This bugs me, because I would go door to door with a broom offering to do odd jobs for a dollar before I would shoplift (I learned from that time I got busted in high …

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O.K. My trusty assistant FOUND the RFID tag and said, "Look! I found it."

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Hey, that reminds me of a pair of twins I knew once. One broke into a duplex to steal electronics, then the house lifted itself off its foundation and floated in the air. Ten minutes later, his brother ran into an identical duplex to steal electronics and----naturally (duh)---that house also lifted itself off its foundation and floated in the air. So the sheriff declared a war on twins.

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Yes, Rabbit---I am an authority. I've scribbled it on vellum and signed my name. Anytime you need a ludicrous thought experiment, I'm your man. I leave all the work of Nat to you and your cohorts, and work from your posts and theirs. As vigilant and hardworking as she is (as YOU are, Nat my darling industrious Bat), reading her prose is like swimming through asphalt for me. I'd rather sip Drano. Oh, Frog, Clouds and I looked the Patriot Act up when it first came out. Hideous. It is a phone book of legalese addendums that a team of lawyers …

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Oh, I had no idea you were such an expert scientist, Scorp. So how did that passport survive the crash and explosion? And why did the hijackers pack suitcases and make a big scene in a titty bar the night before the evil-doer deeds? There must be a scientific explanation for all this and the fact that "ground zero" wasn't cordoned off as a crime scene while a long, detailed, and professional examination of the crime was investigated by top experts and more than one team. There must be a scientific explanation for the failure of all our civilian and military …

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Why would anyone open their mouth and say they had a hand in this? All questions of who did it aside, there was not a proper investigation and people with great responsiblity were not held accountable. If the commander of Norad had been Japanese he might have committed hari kiri after leaving his neatly typed resignation in the appropriate box. Mechanics in the Air Force go to Mannheim or Leavenworth for screwing up. And these guys get promoted after the worst security failure in the history of the U.S.? What the hell do we pay these people for? Are the concepts …

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http://www.planecrashinfo.com/pictures.htm The building angle has gone around in batty circles so long, wouldn't it be food for thought to look at other plane crashes? This site has some interesting photos. The one that crashed into an apartment complex in Amsterdam is particularly interesting. Note the fifties accident in which two airliners collided over the Grand Canyon. It's tragic I know, but I keep trying to imagine something that might have made this disaster just a tad bit more disastrous. If I have this fact straight, this wreck over the grand canyon inspired the founding of the FAA. The crash in Queens …

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Oh, Natalie, I'm not presenting any arguments or "evidence". I'd rather have a bat tattoed on my ass than to "argue" or "debate" with you. I was giving the other guys food for thought. You do understand life outside of constructing "arguments" and the futililty of "proving" something with them, don't you? You apparently aren't very persuasive, but a few people really enjoy picking through your buckets of weasel words and making sure that the challenges to the official story are still alive and kicking. This editing option is great, btw.

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http://www.oilempire.us/wargames.html#airforce This is one of my favorite pages on 9/11. Has it been mentioned too many times already that Donald Rumsfeld changed some of the rules of engagement for errant aircraft in June or July of 2001? Yes, Natalie, you have to put on your tin foil hat for this one, but then again you probably don't have to read an article to blow it off, right? Do you have your little "legitimate" list to work from? Good for you. Keep slogging. I have fun reading the posts in response to yours.

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Move to Florida.

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Florida is getting warm, right Natalie? O.K.--- Howzabout Alabama? And you would be the perfect mentor, oh Bat of Wonder, to show KansasKal how to stay at the 4,000 word limit when it's time for the card stacking game.

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Has anyone gotten to this yet? http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080206Q.shtml Here's my review: This is the worst and most phony piece of drama queen hype I have ever read in my life. Every bit of this contrived harlequin romance of supreme military failure drips with B-grade script devices. Had the author not included the ages of all but the strangely anonymous voices (like someone walked in off the street and picked up a direct line to GONADS) I might have thought they were twelve year olds at play. The answer to the article is "Cut the chatter, and stick to protocol. Copy that?" Apparently, …

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Somehow I sensed that you would remember that, Natalie----the emotional appeal. How can I kick those poor, poor souls when they're down? The same way I would kick a brain surgeon who showed up drunk and scrambled a patient's brain. Boo-effing hoo. Who is the victim here? Clue: Not the f**k-ups. There is nothing difficult about this concept once the scales of romanticism and cheezy denial are wiped from the eyes. The word is "responsibility"----look it up. "If nothing else, it might have given the public a more realistic sense of the limitations, particularly in the face of suicide terrorism, of …

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I've worked in NORAD and on radar, Natalie. Save it for the chumps. Do I have any criticism for the unidentified perpetrators? Of course. I have nothing but contempt for any and all murderers. I also have contempt for inept bunglers who are supposed to be DEFENDERS. It's abuse of power to be incompetent and not to have everyone's "stories straight", when one is commissioned with grave responsibilities. Just like I have harsh words for the drunk driver who kills a familiy and then gets slapped on the wrist because he's well connected, I have harsh words for the institutions that …

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Oh Natalie, Natalie, Natalie. Always the same tricks. What hijackers? The nineteen hijacker list is a lie that people like you perpetuate. It has little to do with what really happened, which hasn't really been investigated as an attempt to find out exactly what happened and who was responsible. "Dodge". Funny. How about the emotional term "19 hijackers" that immediately brings up those made for tv mug shots of swarthy, shifty looking men that were found to be responsible and tried before the court of television viewers within days of the attack . Oh, and you're "grateful" I didn't go into …

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Oh Natalie, that is so preschool. I am not even going to respond to that "oh so there were no highjackers" taunt. One question I have yet to see asked is---Why didn't the people who were running the exercise stop the exercise when it became clear that there was a real-time emergency in progress? The purpose of these exercises is not just to train, but to evaluate. The people running the exercises know exactly what is in the exercises, and should know when something not in an exercise occurs. That it would be appropriate to stop the exercise, and give all …

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Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Natalie. I don't belive in hijackers? I'm embarrassed to say it in front of friends? Guffaw. Yes. NORAD's and NEADS job is to protect our airspace. All this "unexpected, unthinkable, unbelievable" adjective fest is pure red herring. So they were having an exercise about just exactly this kind of event at the same time it happened, and no one "could imagine, or believe, or expect..." All this hooey. If NORAD can't handle that, then they should have their missiles taken away from them. There is nothing fantastic about an aircraft being used as a weapon. Think …

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Oh, yes. I'm thinking that this is the limited hang-out, but for what indiscriminate yet-reading audience? There is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, for any officer at NEADS not to know exactly what the protocol was. And they were watching CNN on the screen at NEADS? Wha??!1! Christ! Could they not have picked up a phone and called NORAD or Ted Turner to get some satellite imagery to help them out? 45 minutes is a long, long, long time in the world of unidentified or hijacked aircraft, and missiles. These guys should have been seeing everything in slow motion. So back to …

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Nice to see you too, Frog.

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The question is not whether or not I "believe" in hijackers---like do I "believe" in God, Santa Claus, miracles, whatever? It's not a metaphysical issue. Of course there are hijackers in the world----whenever someone is hijacking something, there is one or more hijackers. That doesn't make the official story true. You might as well have accused me of not believing in aircraft, and said that if I don't believe the official story it's because I'm some kind of mental case who doesn't believe in aircraft. Raise the bar, Natalie. So back to my question: Why haven’t we heard from the people …

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Natalie, I've already made it quite clear that I do not believe the 19 hijacker story. Rabbit has provided plenty of evidence, and so has a whole slew of people. You keep challenging the most elementary things as if you were lying in wait for some clueless twit to drop at your feet. Subpoenaed by the commission during its investigation, the recordings have never been played publicly beyond a handful of sound bites presented during the commission's hearings. Last September, as part of my research for the film United 93, on which I was an associate producer, I requested copies from …

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Here's some more cheese from that awful article: 08:37:52 BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out. POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise? BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test. PLAY | STOP Powell's question - "Is this real-world or exercise?" - is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed …

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Oh good gawd Natalie. I suspect you're intentionally tiring. Whatever you get out of making excuses for failure is your business, I suppose. Perhaps it just doesn't fit into your single minded pursuit of denial that 9/11 was anything other than an Arab miracle so "unthinkable" that the world's greatest military couldn't think while it happened. Tell me Natalie, do you understand the difference between "responsibility" and "blame"? Were nineteen Arab hijackers responsible for the defense of our airspace?

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A NORAD that had insufficient out-dated equipment. A NORAD that had it’s resources (bases, aircraft) cut way back since the end of the cold war. A NORAD that had grown a little complacent since their heyday during the cold war. A NORAD that was primarily tasked with looking beyond our borders for threats, not within. A NORAD that wasn’t getting prompt and accurate enough information from civilian air traffic control Thanks for making my case Natalie. And it's cute to blame it on Clinton, isn't it? But I don't care who was president, the FAA and NORAD shouldn't either. Wouldn't you …

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"The real story is actually better than the one we told," a NORAD general admitted to 9/11-commission staffers when confronted with evidence from the tapes that contradicted his original testimony. Hmmm. So this is supposed to be acceptable? The "real story" is better than the lies they told when they were not under oath? Keeping in mind that Snow White and the Seven Dwarves is a real story, I must say I have zero faith in our military leaders. Being coy isn't a quality befitting an officer and a leader who has literally held the fate of the earth in …

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If you think that competence is too much for the military----if you believe that it takes superhuman effort to handle an unscheduled emergency, Natalie, then you might want to consider becoming very active in the cause of Nuclear Disarmament. Low standards and nuclear arsenals are a terrible combination. Anyone with a double digit IQ should be able to see this. The movie? Give me a break. No one KNOWS what happened on flight 93 but the people who made it happen and the people who were there. What is it that makes people so weak that they would prefer contrived heroic …

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Frog, Rummy is notorious for exaggerating the Soviet Threat. http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/4/vest-j.html

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Rabbit, thank you for that lucid scolding. I feel cleansed. Oh Natalie, preaching to the idiots are you? And the bigots? Nothing you listed changes anything about the behavior of Israel or the fact that it is Israel illegally occupying territories, brutally attacking Lebanon in a collective punishment for something the people of Lebanon have no control over, and the fact that our good buddies in Israel sold American military secrets to the Soviet Union and China through out the Cold War. Rabbit has described Israel very well. It is a pathologically self-absorbed nation of "chosen people", with the chutzpah to …

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Perhaps the question is do you---WTH, Scorp, and Natalie believe that there are conspiracies? Do you believe that there are theories? Do you believe that it is possible to have a legitimate theory about a conspiracy? Because if you believe that there is no such thing as "conspiracies" and no such things as "theories" and no such thing as a legitimate theory about conspiracy, then what are you thinking?

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"So far, they’ve been successfully been made fools of on several cable tv and mainstream radio shows by people with very little detailed knowledge about the actual events of that day, or of the mechanisms at work in a burning lightweight steel structure." That's interesting, Natalie. In the MSM, are they staging "Conspiracy Theorists" against the "Hardly Informed and Relatively Ignorant"? I don't get television reception. Please describe to me how the Hardly Informed and Relatively Ignorant people made people in the 9/11 truth movement look like "fools", and how the talking heads mediated that process. Perhaps you could explain why …

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Well, Natalie, I'm wondering if the shows you're referring to really want people with knowledge and background to counter those who disagree with the official story. It seems that if they wanted truth, that they would find knowledgeable people to challenge the truth movement. I also wonder why anyone would bother hosting a show for which they have not done enough research to have enough grounding to actually mediate fairly, or why they would not have someone there who could. A three year old could make Einstein look like a fool, if "looking foolish" meant not looking like you were having …

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Some Muslim guy under the tutulage of the FBI did set off a dud of a bomb under the World Trade Center. That would make the World Trade Center a great target for another false flag operation. George Bush lied about Hussein having weapons of Mass Destruction and Iraq having a connection with Al Queda and and has murdered hundreds of thousands of people. Most people in Iraq do not have electricity or clean water right now, Natalie. Stop whining about the WTC---it's garish and vulgar. This victim stance over 9/11 is getting old. If our government wanted justice, they would …

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Natalie, there are twenty car pile ups with more deaths on a daily basis than that bomb that was supposed to "take down the World Trade Center" (according to you). A bomb that is intended to destroy a skyscraper in NYC during business hours that kills six people and does a little damage to the garage is a "dud". Yes. Do that with enough "terrorists" acts with fewer than ten deaths and you'll be undermining your own cause. There are probably that many people shot in parking lots on any given day in the U.S. The poor victims are dead, and …

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I'm telling ya, Rabbit----it's Rumsfeld and the neocons. They have this comic book fantasy. Bush wasn't in office for two weeks before he pissed off China. They all have their own set of shared fantasies and warped weltanschaungs, if you will, but they all have their separate selfish issues in play as well. The neocons and other totalitarian zionists are the biggest, most armed, and toxic clusterf*ck in the history of the human race. I'm limiting my news reading right now, because I am getting too floored. Not to deflect any blame for the U.S. and Israel, but the fact that …

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Can anyone pinpoint that time that questioning, skepticism, and a willingness to consider new information that might pull the rug of perception and opinion out from under oneself was anything other than intellectual honesty, and the qualities of a responsibile citizen in the U.S.A.? It's amazing that among all the cries of "freedom" and "liberty" that challenging the status quo is treated by some as if it were madness. That's awfully suspect on a planet in which such a small percentage of the population of people on this planet owns the rest. Do these wealthy people really need the love and …

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Yeah, I liked that quote too, Rabbit. One of my favorite Dylan songs. And thanks for giving WTH some credit. He realizes that the MSM is full of it and so he is not just going along for the ride. You clearly need to hear it WTH, so I'll say, "I'm sorry that you feel dissed---OR---as I'd like to spell it--- d-i-s-t." Are you aware, Rabbit, that you are part of a plot to make reckless and unfounded accusations of mass murder being thrust upon by all rational accounts innocent people, and thus being deflected away from the obvious and self-admitted …

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Drama Queens in high places have declared the potential devastation of the hair-gel bombers, and---we may safely presume---all future terrorist attacks (real or imagined) to be beyond any adjectives. They must, therefore, resort to putting the prefix "un" before any semblance of intelligence, imaginative thought, or sense of proportion---i.e., "unthinkable", "unimaginable", "unprecedented", etc. Houston, we have a problem. Abort Operation Hyperbolic Zombie immediately. I repeat, "Abort Operation Hyperbolic Zombie immediately". They are not falling for it, and there appears to be far fewer undead than our Papa Romeo team had predicted.

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http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/10/british_aviation_ban.html I did not ask permission to post this here, so I hope the guy doesn't mind. It's an excellent website, and this bit here is so perfectly logical AND hilarious that I couldn't help myself. I declare this quote irresistable: The point of terrorism is to make us afraid. The UK response to a foiled plot is to create an unspecified period during which fliers are arbitrarily deprived of iPods, novels and dignity. If this is a good idea now, then why won't it still be a good idea in a year? A decade? After all, terrorist plots will always …

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Nonetheless, I’m dumbfounded by the catastrophic numbers forecast by British and American officials. Michael Chertoff, United States’ Secretary of Homeland Security, said the presumed plot “had the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of people." That obviously sounds a little silly, and leads one with a brain to assume that either Chertoff never said that, or that he obviously mis-spoke. You got me there, Natalie. In an interview with Jim Lehrer he said "hundreds OR thousands of people". An error, however does not make an entire magazine wrong, as you well know. The logic that there is always a threat …

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"Direct interviews with EYEWITNESSES

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Hi, frog. The "nobody could have imagined" bit really gets me. These hijacked planes were flying around for forty minutes while air traffic controllers and NEADS and NORAD didn't have to "imagine" a god damned thing. All they had to do was follow the procedures for a high-jacked plane. Regardless of whether or not the planes were shot down, or made their targets, the agencies mentioned above had specific protocols. In NORAD, the chiefs have something like twelve minutes to decide whether or not to launch a counter attack against a report of a missile attack (whether it's a false alarm …

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Oh, yeah---my point---I forgot that. Why don't they have the strategic sense to hit America where it would really hurt----communication networks. How about CNN or Fox? How many Americans fly places, really? How many Americans watch television and get their "news" from Fox or CNN. These terrorists are idiots and it appears that there may be copycat evil geniuses who don't have enough imagination to blow up something besides an aircraft.

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Are you making a funny reference, Natalie? That's almost like making a joke, you know. ...formation of a study panel....to determine why some Muslims hate airplanes.... Hmmmm. If airplanes are such a source of ire amongst "some Muslims", then wouldn't a quick survey of "some Muslims", or a perusal of "some right-wing Muslim publications" give us some clues? How could they keep that a secret? Are all Muslims guarding this little treasure? All of a sudden the Muslim world is a tight knit group? Or is it that they are such separatists that no one but the Muslims who hate airplanes …

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If a group of Laplanders bludgeoned to death a group of British scientists with golf clubs, and a plot by another group of Laplanders to bludgeon to death another group of British scientists with golf clubs was foiled, would there be a study asking why Laplanders hate golf clubs?

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Oh yeah: Why did whoever was responsible for the tapes that ostensibly caused confusion on 9/11, not stop the tapes when the confusion began? Who on God’s green earth allowed tapes to be inserted into real time in some of the country’s most busy and vital airports’ air traffic control imagery? Why wasn’t everyone involved testifying under oath? There are some very fundamental questions about very concrete, demononstrable, and legal issues that haven't been answered. The "Why do some Muslims hate airplanes?" provides some comic relief, anyway. I'm looking forward to the panel that asks, "Why have people who would put …

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Rabbit, have you found a language in which Natalie might hear the question: Why did everyone involved not testify under oath?? It's not like it costs extra or anything. Did they feel that Americans don't deserve the effort it would take them to make an oath and speak the whole truth? And all this reticence with a white-wash investigation! What a bunch of pussies.

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So, Natalie---why didn't everyone who took part in the 9/11 hearings make their testimony under oath? Why did the president, and vice-president, and Condoleeza Rice not take responsibility for what they said, and speak the truth under oath on the record? Simple concept. Simple question. Are you going to respond to it or not?

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WTF, are you talking about Scorp? If someone in a government position is not willing to answer an inquiry involving what that person in that position is responsible for under oath (and won't allow the inquiry to be transcribed), then what does that say, other than: 1) the person did not want to be held accountable for what he said 2)the person did not want to leave a record of what he said 3)the person reserved the right to lie with impunity For what reason would a leader not want to give a complete and honest accounting of a national event …

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Yeah, I guess I failed to acknowledge that, frog. I wanted to elaborate on it, that not only was "nobody imagined" just total bull-double-hockey-sticks that passed because matters were supposedly so "technical" and involved "national security"---BUT where the failures of the FAA and NEADS and NORAD were concerned, it was irrelevant. They didn't need to "imagine" planes ramming into buildings, they only needed to notice that planes were off course and their transponders were off and deal accordingly in a timely manner. OH the first week Bush was in office, he (his handlers) made sure that documents from the Reagan era …

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So, Natalie--- Do you have any thoughts on why our Commander in Chief would not testify to the 9/11 Commission under oath? What did he have to lose?

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SO (comma)NATALIE----DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON WHY OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF WOULD NOT TESTIFY TO THE 9/11 COMMISSION UNDER OATH?

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Because, Natalie, I'm an American citizen. What are you? You may believe that Bush is some sort of God-like power that can't be questioned by a mere voting citizen, but what do you call that? If not willful ignorance, or a lame attempt at suppressing a reasonable question, then what is it that makes an American suggest that other Americans have no right to expect accountability from their leaders or to ask for it? What are you? Why don't you just admit that you want a dictator or a totalitarian idealogue? Why make up a lot of paper-thin and transparent excuses …

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make that pompous twit

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Once again, Natalie---you insist on discussing "blame" as if we were in group counseling together and not citizens of a supposedly "elected" government which is required by law to be held accountable to the public. Are you sure you're not a liberal? If I and other people don't know the particulars it is because we haven't been told the particulars. And why not? That's the question, Natalie---why not? It is our information, not George W. Bush's private story. It was the nation that was attacked on 9/11---not George and Dick. Anyone with a vague idea about civics would get this. I …

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Oh, now you're playing the psychiatrist, huh? I don't have any "problem" or "confusion" or "misplaced anger", thank you. I'm doing just fine. This "blaming the victims" is your distortion, and "making excuses for the criminals" is your distortion. There are no formal charges, there has been no thorough forensic investigation, there has been no binding inquiry under oath and transcribed for historical record, and there have been no convictions. The "Muslim hijackers" are hypothetical and hearsay. The victims are dead. Their families grieve. And you won't allow them the vindication of people who were responsible for the defense of their …

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Natalie, honey, get a dictionary and look up the word "believe". And then look up "responsibility". I have had positions of responsibility working under NORAD, and as a caregiver. In both cases, protocol, and facts were what mattered. Death was a very real threat that could be brought on by failure on my end. Dealing with reality was what kept people from dying, not "beliefs" or "imaginings". CAN the "belief" and "imagining" crap, Natalie. This isn't Peter Pan. If you can't see your leaders take the heat, baby, then maybe you got some growing up to do and maybe a psychiatrist …

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My God, Natalie. That's so ass backward it's amazing you said it. The burden of proof of who was behind 9/11 and why the organizations guarding our air space failed to respond in a timely manner to four off-course planes with transponders off is on me???? And the Commander in Chief should not be required to testify under oath because of people like me? Well there's the problem I guess, Natalie---no one told me I was supposed to be running the government.

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Natalie, you are now busy smearing me with your imagination. Why don't you go get the United States vs. Muslim Hijackers and Bin Laden case and show us the Official Case with the official charges made against the Muslim Hijackers and Bin Laden and how the jury decided. If I'm not mistaken, you'll find that in your imagination, but only if you believe. "There can be miracles, if you believe..." la la la la Wiley would have stopped the training tapes as soon as she saw that there were hijacked planes in real time that weren't on the war game scenario. …

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The transcriptions of the tape that I already referred to. Now all of a sudden you're concerned with details? The same story says that NEADS was overwhelmed with false alarms of hijacking for hours after the attacks ended. If you're so sure I could not work with the details, what makes you so sure you can do something with the information all of a sudden---the information that no one could have "imagined". You don't need facts dear, you have faith and imagination. Wiley did her time and did it well. Wiley dealt with a more profound threat than hijacked planes. Wiley …

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Natalie, you are my only dark little indulgence on the internet right now. I'm busy with course catalogs and schedules, so soon, arguing with you is going to be an utterly complete waste of my time. Not the entertaining waste of time it has been. I trust that Algebra and Public Speaking will be much more fun. I will try to get back to this melodramatic dung heap we are supposed to believe is the record from NEADS and FAA later, but now I just want you to ponder this little gem you quoted: “You would see thousands of green blips …

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Who was Commander in Chief during 9/11 Natalie? And why wouldn't he testify under oath and without Cheney holding his hand? If you know anything at all about the military you hide it well, Natalie. The romantic view you want to convey is laughable to me, and I imagine to most people who have been in the military so that they don't need to "imagine" or "believe" what it's like to be in a high pressure situation and they know why repeated drilling is necessary to train people not to have all those "understandable" Scarlet O'Hara moments when they are supposed …

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While harping on what you consider to be my heartless demands for accountability, preparedness, and competence from people with power, you want to hear some heartlessness in response to 9/11?: "Looks like I hit the trifecta."

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http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0604/062104c1.htm 9/11 communication failures still baffle FAA, Defense officials "The hijacking net is an open communication net run by the FAA hijack coordinator, who is a senior person from the FAA security organization, for the purpose of getting the affected federal agencies together to hear information at the same time," he said. "It was my assumption that morning, as it had been for my 30 years of experience with the FAA, that the NMCC was on that net and hearing everything real time," he added. "And I can tell you I've lived through dozens of hijackings in my 30-year FAA career, …

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That all critical events have not been recorded, examined, investigated, catalogued, tagged, and the whole bag of snakes laid out over the course of five years, by the proper government and independent authorities is damning enough to make the call for impeachment for failure to secure a crime scene, for suppressing evidence, for lying like cheap rugs, etc. It' s just a hop, skip, and a jump from there to complicity. Why----five years after the event are things more muddy than ever? People who were responsible either clearly don't want all the facts to be revealed, or are criminally negligent and …

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Natalie, the simple fact that there wasn't a thorough investigation of 93 carried out and reported the way any other aircraft disaster would be investigated screams 'something rotten in Denmark'. Once you've excused a hundred 'little things', you've made one big whopping excuse that in most circles is called "a cover up". These things happen. Remember Nixon? That wasn't made up by people who wear tin foil hats. To suggest that anyone who questions 9/11 and all the misleads, lies, failures, etc., that go with it is paranoid and/or delusional or a poor, misled, simpleton is nefarious in its own right. …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Well, honestjoe---they didn't get the itinerary and the little map with "you are here or here or here" with stars by Crawford, Texas, granite bunkers, and a grade school in Florida; and the towers and Pentagon circled in red with "Terrorist Targets!!!" printed beside them. Without the times and dates of attacks, air defense systems are helpless and emotional. Without exact coordinates, jet fighters can't find planes. That's why dogfights are so notoriously hilarious in that Key Stone Cops sort of way----chasing their tails, flying in the wrong direction, flying over the wrong country, etc. While people in tactical radar units …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Oh, Natalie GIVE UP! Your retorts stink to high heaven, and you are, quite frankly starting to sound like a snorty little school girl. Wipe the snot off your nose. You have explained nothing, especially why you think you understand NORAD and air traffic control better than I do, and why expecting the government to do its job is so cold and unfeeling. I am not going to play your silly little game. You are a bore, that is only effective with people who want to believe and aren't particular about how ridiculous the things they believe are so long as …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

What's with the "gubmint" crap, Natalie?

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You, Natalie, apparently see no reason for NORAD or the FAA to be held accountable for the protection of our air space. Are we supposed to believe that you're innocent, or I'm the wicked witch of the west for thinking the military can be expected to defend us? Do you have any idea how ridiculous and hollow you sound? Take a remedial shill course. Except for the truly desperate, you are merely making Rabbit, Frog, and others look like grown-ups next to you.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Frog, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6739227220487922409 There is a shot of Condi Rice in this video that will make your blood freeze. I think the tape is over the top (for my tastes), but a lot of it probably true, and the picture of her---OUCH! She's one evil looking harpy with some serious issues.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

And what's with "a small bit of progress"? Progress for whom, to what end? Have you got a little chart for "progress" on your desk? Do people who agree with you or say something you can use get little foil stars? Why are you here? Why are you so hell bent on defending organizations that never bothered to make a case? Why are you doing it? Why does this government leave so many questions unanswered and beg so many more, that after five years, this is still a controversy and an increasing number of Americans are beginning to doubt the "impressions" …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

I was in the mood for understatement, Rabbit. I think I've already mentioned the girliness of her postures. I admire your tenacity and endurance, and vivid memory, and am glad you have it, because I don't. I have nothing but contempt and pity for anyone who would spend so much time defending this administration----even if they're getting paid. They aren't winning. And in the U.S., that's a sin in many eyes. As turncoat and unfair as it is that all those people who rallied behind the president after a disaster which has become the hallmark of his administration (they should patent …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

I would wager, john, that she knows full well this administration is corrupt AND incompetent. What a combination. That's why they need so much PR----so many shills----so many young and stupid Republicans banging their gong. So much repetition. And Rupert Murdock---what a horrible joke the MSM is. 24/7 "news" and no journalism. Once you step back from the media trance, and the starry eyed need to "believe" (in miracles) there is simply NO REASON TO BELIEVE THE OFFICIAL STORY. Or is that STORIES? And then more lies: We're going to Iraq to avenge 9/11. Because Sadaam Hussein has WMD and we …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Every time an American training team crashed a jet in Germany (regularly) while I was there, we all held our breath for a moment and muttered prayers and best wishes for the mechanics. If it were found that a mechanical problem that a mechanic was responsible for caused the loss of a jet, or a jet and a pilot and/or navigator, it could be reasonably expected that the mechanic would end up in Mannheim and be dishonorably discharged after that. And of course, he would be/feel responsible for causing deaths if they occurred---which I imagine would be worse than any punishment, …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Did you say that you invented a bomb, Frog? Natalie---there you go again with the Mary Had a Little Lamb----"I just don't see how" defense. Everyone else in the world sees it, Natalie. Do you know what a tiny, tiny group of true believers or true deceivers you belong to? If you don't see anyone behind you, honey, it's not because you're so far ahead---- it's because you've been "left behind". Next time you see a falling star, say to yourself, "I just don't see how that could be a reentry vehicle". If you finish the sentence, it's not because it's …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Yes, Natalie. Here is the job I imagined for NORAD: North American Aerospace Defense Command The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with the missions of aerospace warning and aerospace control for North America. Aerospace warning includes the monitoring of man-made objects in space, and the detection, validation, and warning of attack against North America whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, utilizing mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes ensuring air sovereignty and air defense of the airspace of Canada and the United States. You imagine the rest, because …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Trusting and unsuspecting defense forces. That's almost funny, Natalie. (You appear to be becoming a parody of yourself.) That explains our unrivaled nuclear arsenal and the most expensive military in the world and all of human history---we're so trusting. Dang. Why didn't I figure that out? We attacked two countries that weren't formally found to be involved with the attacks on 9/11, but bin laden might have slept in one, and there still has not been an explanation for attacking Iraq that has proven to be well grounded, realistic, or justifiable. And then our wonderfully humane administration apparently just did not …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Sane adults treat mass murder as a crime, not an excuse for a crusade, Natalie. Adults who are not bigots do not justify the bombing of nations based on the activity of NGO's. Adults who are truly civilized do not condone reducing cities to rubble and killing tens of thousands of people to supposedly kill one specific group of people, or even one specific leader, that might be hiding anywhere in that country---so HEY----just bomb the whole country. That's abominable. That is not in any way commensurate with the spirit of democracy. Responsible adults in positions of grave responsibilty take responsibility …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

(Frog, I want to hear your stories.) The neocons' help and minions have bought into or are enforcing the idea that ideas are dangerous. People getting ideas into their head is a real problem, I mean what if they actually start to t-h-i-n-k? Shhhh. Am I speaking too loudly? You never know what might be the embodiment of evil. Knowledge is evil. And with that mental structure in place you can keep everyone off their toes and on the defensive with the absurd and the arbitrary, and proud of being dumb as a fence post. I was talking to a lawyer …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Yeah, it's a kick in the butt, Frog. I highly recommend to all television viewers that they stop watching television, stop listening to the radio, and stop reading newspapers and magazines for six months. Stay out of talk about current events. Read a lot of classics and catch up on some mending. Garden, whatever. Stay in the present and the immediate. After six months of disciplined MSM blackout, and focus on the world that is manifest around oneself, turn on the television. Trust me. It will be surreal. You'll never see it the same way again. One of the reasons it's …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson.htm Hi, Natalie. I see you're getting more pathetic and desperate. What makes you think that proper investigations of air crashes were done---other than faith, and "of course", and "it would seem"? When you can't get beyond "Bush hatred" as the ad hominem to deflect criticism of this administration on this board, then I DO submit (not 'would" submit, as if it were a hypothetical submitting) that you've got real problems. You might want to improve your sagging defenses by practicing at home with : Pol Pot Pinochet Steve Baldwin Tom Delay Milli Vanilli Elliot Abrams Stalin Steven Segall Paris Hilton …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Not to point too fine a point on your gross and desperate reach to frame Clinton for a "crusade" in the Balkans---Clinton didn't declare "a war on terrorism" or imply that the Muslim world harbored all eville. Say whatever you want about the man---I think little of him, and certainly don't support him or his slimy wife. You may notice, I put them both on your list for practice, but at HOME. Nothing Clinton, Richard Nixon, or Abraham Lincoln did has a bearing on the legal, ethical, moral, and existential responsibilities of the current administration. Are you playing dumb, or do …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

I don't cry and scream Natalie. And I'm not selling canned peas. I'm not selling anything. This "consistency" thing is for sales people and quality control for the mass produced product. Am "I" consistent? What a stupid question. I seriously doubt that you even think that you're talking to ME, doll face. You're talking to someone who might buy what you peddle. Consistency. Har. So, should we let a mass murderer go because we didn't complain about the last one enough? What the hell are you even talking about? These stupid talking points! "Fairness" is "both sides". Are there any good …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Perhaps, Natalie, you should just blow Clinton and get it out of your system. Nobody is talking about Clinton. The topic is 9/11, which occurred under the Bush Administration, and you're just prattling on about CLINTON, CLINTON, CLINTON. I think you have some unresolved issues.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Keep going, Natalie. It's like a field study in anthropology to watch how you define people, judge their judgement, and draw all kinds of conclusions from what appears to be a little checklist, or flow chart, or the Diagnostic Manual of Political Beliefs---a very thin volume---that is getting thinner by the minute. One thing you apparently feel the need to express as a great law is that no opinion or observation about George W. Bush can be made solely on the behavior of George W. Bush and/or his administration. He and Clinton (in your mind) appear to have some sort of …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Natalie. You twist again. All you really say, repeatedly, is that the "official story" is true, and that anyone who disagrees with it or questions it has some inherent fault. Now you're trying to "prove" that I'm "inconsistent" by wracking up all your projections and twistings of my words. Hijackers can be dead AND put on trial, you know. It seems the government doesn't believe in the hijackers---- No trial. No mounds of evidence. No case. From the beginning, I've been asking WHY NORAD FAILED. They clearly, failed, silly girl, we were attacked. From the beginning I've asked why they were …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Natalie, why don't you just make the case for the "official story" for us? In a nutshell. It seems that the burden of proof should be on the accusers and those that claim that they know the truth and are acting according to that which they know. Whatever you think of the people who question 9/11---which is the majority of literate people in the world---and however much you would like to typify them as subsets of an order of people who are not to be believed; no one in the "truth movement" is launching aggressive attacks against nations or cities based …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Frog, I was under a self-imposed news blackout during the whole ordeal in the Balkans and will admit I know next to nothing about it. Whatever the case, it doesn't excuse any misbehavior on Bush's part. Two wrongs don't make a right. I had a class full of four and five year olds in day care who knew that much. All this posturing that pulls Clinton out of the closet just boils down to nanna-nanna-boo-boo and has no bearing on the realpolitik. Christ these true-believers would blame Clinton if Bush nuked Cuba out of some misplaced sense of tradition. I'm not …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

It wouldn't hurt to give the 58% a little credit would it, Redhorse? Is denigrating all Americans important to you? You seem to express joy at the prospect of American people suffering. Am I misreading you? Did you enjoy watching people in New Orleans drown?

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Honestjoe, you seem to be such a nice guy. You might want to be a bit wary of letting "nice" get in the way. Everyone who disagrees with Natalie doesn't fit in her options. It was carried out by 19 Islam hijackers with boxcutters. I wonder why there were 19 hijackers and four planes. ANYWAY, the hijackers, like all "Islamofascists" hate our freedoms. So they crashed aircraft into two towers of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania. The towers collapsed according to theories written after the fact. The part of the Pentagon that was hit was …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Glad to meet ya Redhorse. We can work together.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Redhorse, I did overreact a bit. Sorry to be strident and unfair to you. I think it would be wise, though, if "we" worked a little more at being a little more careful with the uses of "we" and "you". It's bad enough dealing with neocons without having to be blamed for the damned things. No Scorpy, I didn't "sleep" through the eighties. I suppose "sleeping" in your parlance means doing whatever you did. I was busy with college, and I wasn't majoring in poli-sci. I guess that makes all my political opinions irrelevant, huh? I studied enough to see how …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

What the heck, going cold turkey can be unbearable, especially right now. This may not be a good time for a media blackout experiment. There may never again be a good time, come to think of it. But just a pointer---when quitting something, in order to bypass the part of the brain that doesn't get the concept of "no", it's vital to tell yourself that you're going to do something else instead. Make a long list. But, yes the repetition is unbelievable. You might want to make a game when you do watch it of writing down each fact you hear. …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Well, WTH, I WAS in that situation in which I had to evaluate whether or not what appeared to be five missiles being launched from two known Soviet Submarine sites---- that fit the profile of Soviet Submarine launched ballistic missiles--- were really missiles, during the Iranian Hostage Crisis and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. (It really hurt to say, "yes". But it was somebody else's bad---someone in NORAD who had slipped a tape into real-time (sound famililiar?)). I know what it's like knowing that the men in the silos and submarines are pulling out their manuals and a handgun and getting …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

You made some thoughtful points WTH, and I'm not going to address all of them. I disagree on many, and am not informed enough to have an opinion on a few of them. The president or any governement official should be able to stand up to criticism and questioning, and not try to thwart any scrutiny where his actual job is an issue. We pay him. He is there to serve us. It's not just the law, it's the principle. Anyone "hurt" by criticism should not be in the limelight. Complaining about it, or acting like it was uncalled for in …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Natalie, how many measly college years of Political Science, or Marketing and Public Relations have you had? Or measly years of anything?

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Well, Natalie, people with just four measly years of engineering and/or physics instruction can read and reason too. Oh, "technical". That old buzzword. Did Edison go to college? To claim that it's too "technical" for you to understand, yet that you can tell who is and is not a legitimate analyst is more than just a wee bit odd. Falling back on the plea to the only authorities you will recognize is not the model of sound reasoning.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/archive/s_467580.html Grassy knoll conspiracy theorists at the Livermore Laboratory. What next? Tell us the story Natalie, about how the DNA of the hijackers was found with their Arab DNA genes intact and how all the samples of DNA that were beyond the shadow of the doubt the DNA of the hijackers was found to compare with the DNA scraped from the rubble, and how that DNA evidence proved that the "Arabs" were hijackers. I'm going to skip off to find the article about the Arab gene. I had no idea that the geographical ethnicity gene had been isolated. But, until they …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

In a typical scenario there are hundreds of samples taken from remains that must be matched to the pedigrees of the alleged victim’s surviving relatives. Moreover the samples are often degraded due to heat and exposure. To develop a competent method for this type of forensic inference problem, the complicated quality issues of DNA typing need to be handled appropriately... http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/short/22/14/e298?rss=1 Wow! This article was published in 2006. Our WTC investigators must have really been on the cutting edge. These Oxford guys should be blushing. I guess, since they're on the internet this is probably seductive (in that brainy-guys-turn me on …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

It's amazing how you can go so far, WTH, and then just clam up. I don't think Bush "manufactured" it either, btw----the man couldn't manufacture a taco. But I don't think "speed" explains the errors or the incredible preponderence of errors on 9/11. NORAD and air traffic controllers should be quite accustomed to speed. Jets tend not to move slowly. In the matter of Intelligence, I can see an argument that volume, a.k.a. "too much information" is a problem, but not in air traffic control or NEADS, or NORAD---organizations that should be quite comfortable with a large volume of traffic. But …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

O.K., Natalie---I'll play your silly little game. The recent revelations about the JFK assassination are an excellent example of superior science winning out over a politicized investigation. As a person who has claimed not to be a scientist at all, how do you determine what is "superior science"? The hijackers were on the plane that crashed into the towers, exloded into flames so hot that they (supposedly) softened the steel beams in a building that was designed to withstand the impact of a 747, burned for twenty minutes or so, and were then buried under quite a few floors that collapsed …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/ WTH, if you have some honest, open questions about the situation in Iraq---and I trust that you do---then you might want to send one to Dahr Jamail's website. I don't know how busy they are now, but I've found that if you ask a sincere and respectful question, you'll get a sincere and respectful answer.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

http://www.politicalcortex.com/story/2006/8/26/195425/883 Some of the most disturbing questions arise from the discovery and subsequent comments of Scott Forbes, someone who should have become a household name had the mainstream media done its job properly and raised important questions that have been largely left begging. Scott Forbes was an employee of Fiduciary Trust, a firm located on floors 90 and 94-97 of the South Tower of the World Trade Center. Forbes reported that over the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, floors 50 and above of the South Tower experienced a power down, meaning that all electrical currents were shut off for about 36 …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Natalie, why is a proclaimed Republican such as yourself indulging so much in moral relativism? Isn't that the domain of "liberals"? You just can't seem to understand anything someone says about Bush if they haven't criticized another president. If Bush destroyed China from space because he wanted to try out his new secret weapon---an act without precedent---does that mean that it would not be possible to judge his action? I get tired of humoring this 'Bush is the president' thing, but if he only exists in comparison to other presidents then let that be Lincoln.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Natalie---the whole point was the identity of the hijackers. Scorp, take a flying leap.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Aye, johndoraemi it is "depleted" because it is no longer useful as nuclear fuel and it's much cheaper to give it away or sell it as scrap metal than to go to all the expense of disposing it according to regulations. It's "born again" in ballistic weaponry that 'penetrates' metals and dna. Really it's re-emasculated uranium; but Halliburton, KGB, and Bechtel don't like to brag about mass indiscriminate murder, mutation, and environmental destruction that will spread throughout the planet for all human time. Oh, Natalie, nothing says uneducated or poorly educated middle class wannabee like suggesting that you can't understand what …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Oh, Natalie, you're so cute when your condescending. As a "compassionate conservative" you say the opposite of what you mean, and then pretend that is a kindness on your part. That's so noble, I can't stop yawning. adios

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Oh, gag. Your plea to authority again. I already read this one. So what? The majority don't want to rock the boat. Just one more reason why Americans are so poorly educated----they're afraid of ideas and believe that positions confer actual authority about what is real and true, Universities have become quite accustomed to altering their "findings" to please the corporations that sponsor them. They are working for the same people our government is. I'm together dear. Quite together. I don't need to work incessantly to hold up a lie with paperclips and bailing wire----coddling the reputation of a drunk, and …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Honestjoe, I don't really get that much into disussing specifics on 9/11. The way I see it, the government made allegations. The ball is in their court. The government has failed to do thorough forensic investigations, failed to hold people in charge of air defense accountable, failed to make a case, failed to "prove" anything. The "stories" are Fractured Fairy Tales. I think it was cunning to allow so many obvious impossibilities into the story. We could argue individual issues til Tuesday after the cows come home. But all you have to do is not believe the bullshit that interferes with …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Oh, but to answer your question, Joe---it makes no sense whatsoever for people planning on hijacking a commercial aircraft and crashing it into a skyscraper to be out making a scene the night before the deed. Whoever carried out the hijacking was a soldier. A good soldier sleeps when he can, and suicide martyrs don't need to pack luggage to be stowed under the plain unless it will explode, or in some way help in the mission. However "crazy" and "depraved" anyone wants to make the alleged hijackers out to be, the attacks of 9/11 were not something that the people …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

I love this poll Natalie, The poll is the first scientific survey of Americans' belief in a 9/11 cover up or the need to investigate possible U.S. government complicity, and was commissioned to inform deliberations at the June 2~4 "9/11: Revealing the Truth, Reclaiming our Future" conference in Chicago. Poll results indicate 42% believe there has indeed been a cover up (with 10% unsure) and 45% think "Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success" (with 8% unsure). The poll of American residents was conducted from Friday, …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Beneficial effects of radioactive contamination of land, air, and water supplies? Natalie, I think you're losing it. Ya think the Afghanis and Iraqis will start growing huge vegetables like on Gilligan's Island when those crates of radioactive seeds washed up on their beach? Or is cancer a good thing now? You really are starting to hate your job aren't you? You keep insisting that words like "defense" and "toxic" and "gravity" are being misinterpreted here. The only way to "misinterpret" such concepts is to be clueless or dishonest.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Natalie, why don't you show us the evidence that the two Chertoff's are unrelated, and this is just another one of the incredibly long streams of "coincidences" that will be the hallmark of this lying sack of shit called "the Bush Administration". But first, tell me how you can prove that they are unrelated and have never met? This proving negatives is all the new rage isn't it? And to think it was thought for so long to be impossible. You are brilliant Natalie---such a rare genius that I have to wonder why you're slumming it with all us tin foil …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Honest Joe, it never stops. I think I understand why zombies movies are so popular now. Brain. Brain. Brain. They really want a brain and are dying to get one. Wakka, wakka, wakka. I have told her repeatedly that radar blips do not "disappear" when a plane turns off it's transponder. If that were the case, we would have been totally defenseless against enemy aircraft since the dawn of the what the hell did they invent it and use if for if it was worthless without a friendly transponder radar? I mean, how smart do you have to be to get …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

WTH, so what? Military personnel means squat. The United States military bombs. In missile warning 78-80 we needed three people on scope at a time in my unit to watch the Western Hemisphere. FAA and NORAD should clearly be the last to be cut, and I seriously doubt that Clinton made cuts in Air Defense. I seriously doubt that Clinton could have stood up to a lobby if the Pentagon really wanted to beef up domestic air defense. The Cold War did not end air traffic. The Cold War didn't even change our nuclear forces that much. We've still got missiles …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Scorpy-shit, go blow yourself . I have a life that is far too rich to be wasted reading your trash. Natalie at least has some entertainment value. You are just a frustrated troll. Crawl back into the hole from which you crawl. Your side will lose, and you will be sorry to be on it. Promise.

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

Funny that someone who opens with "bileybitch" is niggly about form. I will soon be too busy for this little diversion. Everytime I hear an American wondering why they ever fell for it, I'll think of you--- Natalie, and you--- Scorp. I will celebrate the fall of the Vulcans and blow out two candles just for you. May not be this year. May not be next year. But they will fall, and fall hard. And everybody you know will know where you stood. And you still won't get it. Every time I walk into the Agricultural Sciences building I'll be reminded …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

No, Natalie, that means I'll be starting on my Bachelor's of Science in Horticulture and will have absolutely no excuse to waste my time with dead-ender shills. I'll say "ciao", now, since I have far more interesting things to do (like picking my teeth) than watching Nat and Scorp reruns, and I wasn't gullible enough to fall for the 'official' "story" in the first place. Keep the bar low for standards of government and helping people make excuses for the status quo. You need practice. I don't remember seeing either of you make any conversions here. Toodles. "Yeah, when they built …

Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement

I think men and boys are in need of the "you're not crazy" vindication that women got from the third wave of feminism. I would like to kick it off with, Yes. You do cradle the baby like a football.

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Hi, shand, I think the idea of maturity as "settled, comfortable, and stable" is the old marketing cliche to build suburbia. I can't argue with "responsible" as an important part of maturity, so long as "responsible" for what? is on the table for discussion. Hi, xetere, I agree that boys and men are being dogged. I've been feminist since I was eleven, but now I'm looking for a new word for it. A couple of years ago I was a nanny for a child I walked to school. A lot of kids in the neighborhood wanted to walk with me and …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Hi, forwardfem I never thought it would be better if women ruled the world. The valorization of a group is one thing, proposing that they become dominant is another. I'll confess that I went through a male-bashing stage in the eighties. There was a lot of blatant mysognyny in the media then, but now, as is addressed in the article it's turned around. Fortunately, a friend called me out on my bashing and I stopped. Then I started to see nice men hanging their heads and looking confused, and hang-dog, like--am I crazy? while women carried on about how "bad" men …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Solid article, forwardfem. I bookmarked http://www.lipmagazine.org/ and put it in my news folder. It makes me happy to see an argument against feminist qua women telling women what they ought to be because they are women.

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Maria, I see your point and I surmise that anyone who takes a feminist perspective has the same struggles, but think about it---whose hand rocks the cradle? I can't count the number I've times I've seen a mother tell her two year old boy not to be a "baby". Who just loves a man in uniform? Also, if women weren't competing with other women, men would not be able to dominate. This is a generalization, but I think it's fair to say that women tear other women down. If you don't see that out of whack "feminine" energies that are destructive, …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Rocco, if you look at gender differences worldwide, you'll see a lot of different sets of "differences" that often contradict our Western view of gender. I'm sure there are sexual and intellectual proclivities that differ, but those are differences on a scale. I'm not arguing with you, just want to make a point. Like there are a lot of people whose body temperatures are usually 97.3 Fahrenheit. It would be a mistake and an abuse of a mean to think that these people are "off". Women who are more "masculine" in tone (according to our cultural codes) and men who are …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Rocco, I am taking a mini-break from spring cleaning and cannot go into the intricasies of your post right now. I hope to get to them by Thursday. It's a fascinating topic. aquraishi, it is ridiculous how marketing belittles and cheapens us all. It is not to our credit that this sells and that's why they do it. I'm glad that we can see men cry in movies now, and even on live telecasts sometimes. I'm glad to see men snuggling with their baby. I'm tired of seeing men being dogged too. If you have a penis and your an adult, …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

I'll get back to you on that Thursday, johnny----Wednesday night if I'm lucky. In a nut-shell I do not believe that women are inherently morally superior, I don't believe that one should believe that they should have or amplify, or should not have or should minimize any human personality trait based on the accident of the sexual organs they have. I also, believe that no one is "liberated" until everyone is "liberated" among groups that live together. Auquraishi, backlash is an interesting thought in this context. That's why I have such a problem withovercompensating, and over-valorizing tactics, they naturally lead to …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Dang! Dang! Dang! I wish I had more time, it's going to take me a couple of hours to catch up on this thread and respond to all these posts. Have fun. Keep it hot.

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Being a willful mesomorph, I'm guessing that it's probably a little bit of both rocco. We do all have the same hormones, we just be different cocktails at different times, depending on the bar, and crowd, and accidents of our births. I am busy with spring cleaning that would make Hera proud. I guess I'm 50-50 androgynous genderwise, and 100% heterosexual female sex wise. T(hat surprised me.) According to tests I took recently, I'm 50-50 left/right brain as well. What's important to remember with generalizations, statistics, and trends is that that's what they are. A person who doesn't understand this might …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

rocco, I think this is the same test I took. My alpha amigo had it downloaded for a class, so I didn't go through all that registration stuff. I also score in the middle of thinking/feeling on the Meier Briggs. Johnny I've got a lot of catching up to do and do not want to respond to your posts without careful reading and thought. I do want to point out that women have testesterone, and men have estrogen. As far as hormones and behavior goes, I can't take birth control pills because they either make me royally depressed, or violent. I …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

the direct link to the test

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Oh, bother! I'm going to watch a movie, now.

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

I haven't had television reception for about four years. I occassionally see something at a friend's house. Women in manic states over pine oil is weird. I still have uncompleted missions and have been lame all day. Though my progress is wunderbar. The house is cosmetically lovely. You wouldn't believe how much work tomato, pepper, and basil plants are when they're toddlers. Johnny, I've been thinking of you and a way to approach what you're saying. I'm not one to say "I'm not feminist but...". I'm feminist, but I want to see men liberated too. If men aren't liberated, how can …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Johnny, I'm still having difficulty getting focused and reading all these posts. I would like to point out a couple of things. 1) Most interpretations of the prehistorice hunter-man, gatherer-woman stuff is crap---it's projecting the fifties and sixties on prehistoric cultures. Most likely, in most groups, all members who were able to work, helped to encircle and trap an animal while anyone who had the weapons and talents went in for the kill. If a prehistoric woman had a 100% kill rate with a spear, I doubt that the tribe would keep her from hunting because it wasn't "lady-like". And rocco, …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Johnny, I know you're not stupid. And I trust that if you were a woman, you'd see a side of women you don't normally see, and you would understand why you should decline the invitation when two women who haven't seemed too thrilled with you lately, invite you to lunch. (Assuming that you're dealing with American women, in an American setting). You're romanticizing women. One of the reasons you may see women "agreeing" so much, is because it's often seen as an act of betrayal to disagree with the alpha female, or other women in a pack. That's why I preferred …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Johnny, I've been consistent too, but I haven't had enough time to write carefully enough to get across. It's odd, but I just quit one of my jobs and now I'm really busy. It's also March. For a gardener in my zone, March starts out like tra, la, la--- spring is coming, and somewhere in the middle it turns into get up and shine your boots! (or watch two months of work go down the drain---I do a lot of starting from seeds indoors). And, as I am whenever the war drums are beating, I'm a little overwhelmed by the prospect …

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

I'm glad we're cool. It's all real. It's all important. It all counts. I see your point, and I will not say all of the things I could say to make you feel less optimistic about the precarious state of the world.

Posted to Men Growing Up to be Boys

Syphillus, tuberculosis, and TB are bacteria. The bacteria have never been "wiped out", and probably shouldn't be. The diseases the bacteria cause when they overwhelm a person's immune system have been treated successfully with antibiotics and therefore, not spread as widely. Strains of bacteria become resistant to antibiotics through the overuse of antibiotics, poor cleaning and sepsis protocol, and insufficient hand washing. One thing I've noticed is that people often behave as if gloves were magic and are not vigilant enough about where all they are putting their hands when they are wearing gloves. These infections can also be spread through …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

Just about every year hospitals are evaluated and number one on the list is a need for increased handwashing. I think part of the problem is that there are more people living longer, and our society is unhealthy. It's not natural for a person to wash their hands every five minutes, and to wear latex or vinyl or neoprene gloves all day. Health care people have developed allergies to latex and died from thier gloves. What's necessary isanal. In fact, health care people could be written up for not being anal or compulsive enough with handwashing. People have been having amputations …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

"Most of what women do at home is unnecessary cosmetic work that often spreads germs." --an arresting accusation. Got proof or is this merely bashing the woman of the house? LOL Well, I could dig up some studies if you're interested, Tim. I've studied this for years and have years of experience as a caregiver and housekeeper. Did you really perceive "bashing" in my post, or are you joking? Being "the woman of the house" myself, and all. It's hard to tell with LOLs these days. I have no problem with cosmetic cleaning btw. Over 80% of the deaths caused by …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

Hi, antlantaelaine, I don't doubt what you say, but I don't want to let clinics,hospitals, and medical personnel completely off the hook, either. I've seen a nurse touch an MRSA infected and weeping sore, then---with the same glove--- touch a lot of other areas on the client's body, bedding, and wheelchair. I wanted to clock the woman. I also saw a client in the hospital for a week with an iatrogenic infection caused by surgical implements that weren't properly sterilized. It was a University hospital, the admitted their mistake. My client could have died from that, and we both do our …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

Wrongo, Mr. Christopher, there are more fecal coloforms (sp?) in the kitchen than in the bathroom---there is food in the kitchen. In tests done by microbiologists, household kitchens are often found to contain more pathogens than public restrooms. Biggest offenders---sponges. People go out of their way to spread microbes by wiping surfaces all over the kitchen with a nasty sponge so that the kitchen looks nice. If you built two identical kitchens and had one sterilized like a NASA clean-room, and the other covered with deadly pathogens, you couldn't tell the difference by looking. My papercrete dreamcottage that exists in my …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

...women actually think that a mans penis is a disgusting thing; except of course, when it becomes useful to them as a means to an end. Disgusting? That's harsh. Do they think their own genitalia are "disgusting"? Have you ever sat down on the toilet and fallen into the bowl? It's most unpleasant, but when I do, I take equal blame for not making sure the seat was down, and I have to laugh because it's slapstick. If I were going into home architecture I'd work a urinal and the sensored self-flushing, lid closing toilet into the bathroom. I don't know …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

It's great you got through it, David. Catheters are high on the list for hospital bred, anti-biotic resistant bugs. Clouds was stuck in the hospital for six days with an infection he was given him while they cleaned out his bile ducts and put in a new catheter. If the infection was antibiotic resistant, it wasn't resistant to all of them---or he'd be quite dead. It was staph. I don't want to go to the hospital either. Once, I thought I had a kidney infection (it turned out to be lumbar pain from working ten minutes on an assembly line while …

Posted to Are Hospitals Hazardous to Your Health?

oil If there is truth in this article, then the situation in Darfur is about much more than feelings of tribal superiority. I was happy to see that there is talk in my state of divestment from the oil market in the Sudan. According to the article, a lot of retirement folios have a lot of investments in Sudanese oil. It confuses me that this administration will use the word "genocide", while the U.N. argues about what constitutes "genocide", and yet we do nothing and the European nations do nothing, and NATO does nothing to intervene and stop the violence. If …

Posted to Raising a Million Voices for Darfur

I don't "google", Jay. I use a search engine. I found some interesting articles and it appears that China is indeed, at least one of the sponsors of these atrocities in Darfur, and China imports a lot of petroleum from Sudan. But how about laying off, the evil empire schtick? China isn't doing anything that we haven't done for Exxon or Bechtel. Neither we nor China invented imperialism, colonialism, or the divide-and-conquer technique. I would like to see the Security Council abolished so that the U.N. can get down to business with majority votes of a quorum. Then we could have …

Posted to Raising a Million Voices for Darfur

Can you give me a source for that pharmaceutical information, Harrower, I have a friend who has a life or death situation with medication and the constant threat of having insurance dropped or cut is a strain? I've been looking at international pharmacies, doctors in these parts are as unlikely to admit such a thing as Pfizer is. The prices are so much lower it's maddening.

Posted to Raising a Million Voices for Darfur

Hy ryaninfo. Agreed, I would also like more audio---like Fire on the Prairie(ITT) on-line so I can listen while I work. This article points out one more example of the inherent opportunism, inefficiency, corruption, and amoral decision making in neoliberal or neocon (a thorn is a thorn is a thorn) economic practices. It's a ponzi scheme. It's a profiteering free-for all. And I'm going to rant about it while I finish my first cup of coffee, here. New Orleans is an American city, and a great American port. If most U.S. citizens had enough information and understanding, I think they would …

Posted to The Gulf Rush

Good news! Keep up the good work, brian28

Posted to The Gulf Rush

You'd think those donations would be tax deductable, brian. It's so charitable and all.;)

Posted to The Gulf Rush

WTH, let's not be the darking pot calling the kettle black. In case you haven't noticed, Rumsfeld and the whole PNAC crowd is working hard to make China and Russia our enemies again so that they can relive the comic book days of their Cold War youth. I expect to see a lot more news in the future about how awful the Chinese government is to citizens who want "democracy" and "freedom". Whether the stories are accurate or overblown matters not. The point is that all good Americans are supposed to hate China and think that they are our enemies. (Be …

Posted to China Dissidents Disappeared

Kuya, China is certainly a rising economic power. There are also public uprisings all over the place (we don't hear much about workers' revolts) by workers who want their piece of the pie---they know the pie is getting bigger, and their government is running all over the place putting out fires (so to speak), especially when there are workers who are not getting paid at all, for some reason. They also have a lot of majorly catastrophic floods. But I digress. Bicycles are being ordered off roads and roads are being made wider to accomodate the growing middle class in China …

Posted to China Dissidents Disappeared

Hello, i_am_the_walrus. I'm all in favor of NGOs helping out where they are welcome (though I think the Chinese government would not be over-the-top paranoid, if they suspected that some of these groups were fronts for the CIA). I am all in favor of human rights and non-abusive governments. However, I must say that I don't think I "must" do anything about it, anymore than I think the Chinese should feel like they "must" do something about our abuses at Guantanamo, Abu Graib, Bagram, and other gulags spread around the globe. As for buying their products, that's a horns of the …

Posted to China Dissidents Disappeared

They have a rising youth movement working for democracy. This is NOT the time to bomb their country or take any action that will create disorder that the government will (naturally and predictably) crack down on. I don't think we have to do anything about China. Have we not made enough antimonious, and tragically impossible situations in the MIddle East ? We should consider ourselves lucky if China doesn't get too concerned about what to do about us. We need to take care of our own problems. We don't seem to be doing a heckuva job rebuilding New Orleans, or preserving …

Posted to China Dissidents Disappeared

There is another lie they told you WTH---the one about our precision weaponry and superior military cababilities. For the bombing of military targets in the opening attack we were 0 for 50. Russia studied our attack and concluded that we relied so heavily on satellites for communications that we could very easily be crippled and left dead in the water. In aerial combat exercises with India about two years ago, India won---their jets and their pilots were better than ours. When you hear talk about how splendid and super-advanced our weaponry is, think Boeing, think Lockheed, think Northrup Grummon. That's who …

Posted to China Dissidents Disappeared

Hey, Mitcherino, I had a wha??!! moment when Odom began to speak as if we were hurting Israel, rather than doing it's bidding. Whatever the case, if having nuclear weapons and delivery systems (including submarines) that can hit any place in the mid-east or Asia doesn't console them, then what will? God knows, it must be confusing to be the chosen people, illegal occupiers, the elephant in the living room, and the all-time-greatest-victims in the history of humanity at the same time, but it might relieve some of the pressure and disappointment that Israel has been expressing about U.S. actions lately, …

Posted to General Condemnation

Mitcherino, I think he's saying that anyone who questions anything about "The Holocaust" is to be completely dismissed as a nut case, and that anyone who criticizes Israel is crazy, if not anti-semitic. (As if the Palestinians weren't Semitic). It is supposed to be obvious that Palestinians are all terrorists and Islamo-fascists, because they fight against Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian territories. It is supposed to be understood that when Palestinian children throw rocks at soldiers, that the soldiers are obliged to shoot the children in the head so that they don't grow up to be suicide bombers. Those that rail …

Posted to General Condemnation

Logan why I find it compelling escapes me, but I want to assert that I am a she. I'd love it if we had a gender neutral pronoun for people, because sex doesn't matter in these posts, but I am not a he---so, I feel like I have to correct that, or I would be lying. Liked that article by the way. Very level-headed tone, though it has probably been described as "shrieking" and "ranting" and "maniacal", etc.

Posted to General Condemnation

logan, nothing to forgive---it's not like being a man is a bad thing. I just wanted to give the information. I have been reading a bit about Holocaust revisionism, and It is not easy to question the "story". It feels like having the rug pulled out from me, and to many people have managed to accomplish that. Since I was in the sixth grade, I've been taught that Israel grew roses in the desert. It sometimes appears that Isreal grows roses out of its butt. Isreal has been taught with such essentialism and exceptionalism that we were never even taught to …

Posted to General Condemnation

typo correction: NOT TO MANY PEOPLE have been able to pull the rug out from under me

Posted to General Condemnation

TOO many people

Posted to General Condemnation

Ya think Terry or any of his followers have asked themselves how many foetuses have been murdered by our armament in Iraq and Afghanistan? Are some foetuses more equal than others? Kuya, I see your point about conflict between democracy and extreme religious groups. The less stressed a society is though, the more likely it is to lean toward tolerance and open-ness (sp?), and the more educated a society is, the fewer illiterate people will be taken in by extremist "religious" hucksters. I agree that zealous ideologies that will use any excuse to justify violence are NOT going to help. People …

Posted to The Crescent Menace

I have no problem with religions, for the most part, and do not believe that these people are as representative of American Christiandom as it appears. They certainly aren't representative of Christianity worldwide. As another article pointed out a month or so ago, gay teenagers are being executed in Iran---just pointing out that this rampant homophobia is not limited to Christian fundamentalists. Any control freak, homophobe, paranoid/cowardly personality can find a way to channel that through religious and political groups. The secular can be just as faith-based and dogmatic as the God-based religions. Just add people who are looking for someone …

Posted to An Anti-Gay Easter

And, oh yeah----didn't Jesus say something about woe to anyone who hurts a child? Punishing and stigmatizing the children to hurt the parents is vile. You don't protect children by villifying their parents---even if the parents are abusers or neglectful and the child is no longer in their custody, it is not in the child's interest to hear mean, spiteful things said about their parents. Adoptive parents are parents. Is nothing sacred to these demonizers?

Posted to An Anti-Gay Easter

Kuya, then they would fight amongst themselves. (Baptists are cannibalizing now---that's pretty much what Baptists do). They are being led by people, and many are people who thrive on opposition and demonizing. Probably, most of the people rallying behind their religious leaders on these issues would change for the better if given the real life opportunities and living examples, but it would be a lot of work, because most of the zealots are addicts that don't even know they're addicts. They get high off their little frenzied tantrums----the big domapine score. They are like the rich and powerful who will never …

Posted to An Anti-Gay Easter

John Ireland, you and I must have been making our posts around the same time. I didn't see your post before I posted my last one. I agree with what you say, and think that the internet still holds the same promise for democracy it always has, it's just that we Americans tend to want everything yesterday, and have been given the impression that if things don't come off instantly and easily, then we must be dumb or wrong. The internet is as much a revolution as the invention of written language, in my opinion. I don't understand people who put …

Posted to An Anti-Gay Easter

True enough, , cabdriver. Activism is important, but also, the personal is political and vice versa. Taking action on issues is important, but so to is not treating hate speech as "free speech". When the wing-nutty elements jump on board and speak as if everyone else in any forum is the same "other", this is called "depersonalization", and when the right of the supposed homogenous group to exist or be treated equally is drawn into question or denied, it is called "dehumanizing". It is not benign. It is a serious warning bell. The more bullies think they can get away with …

Posted to An Anti-Gay Easter

Al